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Are Women Pastors Usurping the Authority of God?

The following is a comment from Lorna (the female pastor) on my previous post. She wrote:

Roadkill, "usurp" is a very strong word. Not used by you but by an author you quote.

In many churches (Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian and even a few Pentecostal -Assemblies of God congregations) the MALE leadership have prayerfully voted on the question of women in ministry and accepted women as pastors/priests/ministers.

usurp? I think not.

I for instance would never preach to a congregation without an invitation, and without sumbmission to the person in authrority (be it bishop or district superintendent or president (or any other title)

I do understand that for your church the leadership have not accepted women to preach /teach (from the pulpit / to a mixed congregation) and I accept and respect that.

My response:

In 2 Timothy 2:25 it says, "with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth..."

I Peter 3:15 says, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;"

As my heart is fixed on Christ and as I serve the one and only true and living God knowing that it is His grace alone that enables me to speak the truth in love and it is He that prepares my mind for action, I begin this morning, as I try to do every morning, with fervently, rightfully and reverentially looking for ways to serve and bring glory to my Lord.
I wish I could claim to do this perfectly. But I know that I know that I know there are times I fail... and even in that failure, my God progresses my walk in Him and gives me the boldness and strength to keep going.

In writing the above, I wanted to prepare you for what I write now.

For what I write is divisive truth. But since the love of God controls me (2 Cor. 5:14-15), I cannot flee from this truth nor bury my head in the sand so that I will be seen as peaceable in the wrong sense. I will always strive to not compromise Christ in character, I therefore, cannot compromise Christ in truth either... for that goes against His character.

Remember to read the 5 rules of engagement on the left sidebar before posting.

The Lord God designed men and women to fulfill different roles and they are created by God with equal dignity. When men go against the Word of God and allow women to preach and teach over men, they are usurping the will of God, perhaps not blatantly, but in ignorance. And if in ignorance, it still does not make this a non-sin issue. For men to bring glory to God, they MUST do their best to present themselves to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.(2 Tm 2:15)

These role distinctions are clear since creation and they are ordained by God to "beautifully complement each other." But since the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, there has been a relentless and detrimental battle of the sexes. In the equality of the sexes, there is a balanced tension that must be held regarding gender roles. "When properly understood and practiced, these role differences promote Godly manhood and Womanhood..." However, minimizing or blurring these distinctions cause unnecessary division and unbalanced tension that dishonors God.

"Role distinctions between the sexes are based on abiding order of creation (Gen 2) and redemption in Christ (Eph 5)." The goal of wanting to know what your God-given role is as a man or a woman must be that you want to know what God wants you to do. And how do you correctly go about finding out what God wants? The Word of God, that is the Bible, a book that when prayerfully studied, and read, keeping in context the truth written therein, will not go against itself.

Rene Pache said, "If we are criticized for constantly quoting scripture texts, what can be said of Christ, who had them constantly at the tip of His tongue?"

Study first Corinthians 11:11, 12. You will clearly see that man is the head of the woman (v3), but he is also dependent on the woman and needs her as much as she needs him (v 11, 12) Verses 3 and 7 must always go with verses 11 and 12 in First Corinthians 11. Why? Because headship and submission must always be taught in connection with equality and interdependence.

A woman came from a man (Gen 2:21) and First TImothy 2:13 clearly calls for masculine leadership in the church. In 2 Cor 11:9 and Gen 2:18 the woman is clearly said to be made for the man to be a suitable helper for him. She is to complement and support him. The man's role is not defined in terms of the woman's role, but the woman's role is defined in terms of the man's role. People have sadly warped this and used this as a basis for abusing women. That is not the case. For those that sin against a woman are sinning against God.

God created woman to directly reflect the man's headship authority by recognizing it, revealing it, submitting to it, and supporting his headship. This is not a cultural issue or concept. It is God's ordained divine plan.

(Alot of the information from above was from Alexander Strauch's book: Equal Yet Different. I highly recommend this book.)

The following are excerpts from John MacArthur:

God did use women such as Miriam (Ex. 15:20- 21), Deborah (Judges 4:4), Huldah (2 Kings 22:14-22), and Anna (Luke 2:36-38) to speak for Him on occasion. Paul dialogued with various churches and synagogues during his missionary journeys, answering questions from women as well as men (cf Acts 17:2-4). I think there is a time and place as well for women to publicly offer a testimony of praise to the Lord. I don't think Paul is saying they can never do that. What he is forbidding is women taking on the leadership roles in the church.

In 1 Corinthians 11:3 Paul says, "The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. " That verse teaches that women are to be in submission to men in the sense that they are not to usurp the role of leadership in the church, which belongs to qualified men only.

Since Christ is the head of the man, and the Father is the head of Christ, why do we debate about whether the man is the head of the woman?

Does 1 Corinthians 11:5 Permit Women Preachers?

Some people teach that the praying and prophesying the women were doing in 1 Corinthians 11:5 took place during the worship service. However the text doesn't say that. Perhaps Paul is talking of prayer and prophecy in general. It's not until verse 18 that Paul first speaks in this chapter of the formal gathering of the church: "First of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there are divisions among you. " Prior to verse 18 he apparently hasn't been talking about the worship service.

In verse 5 Paul is perhaps speaking of women praying and sharing the Word of God in a home Bible study or family prayer time. His point is that whenever Christians get together, women are to maintain the decorum of submission, and men that of headship. ...Man in a sense is the sun and woman is the moon that reflects the light of the sun. Man is symbolic of the glorious dominion of God, and woman is symbolic of the one who follows.

What is the significance of subjection?

God has designed all of human life to revolve around relationships. Everyone is involved in a relationship, and within those relationships are differing roles. However in our society the emphasis is not on relationships, but on individuality. People focus on their rights and seek to satisfy themselves. In such a society there's a tendency to view everyone as having equal roles. But when women refuse to accept their God-ordained roles in the church and family, they undermine the foundational design of God for those institutions. The stability of society is at stake.

When can women proclaim the Word of God?
At any time and at any place, except when the church comes together for the worship service. Anna spoke the truth (Luke 1:36-38). Mary spoke it in her Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55). Women, I pray to God that you proclaim His truth over and over again for as long as you live!

Can women share what they've learned at Bible studies?
Yes. In the right environment, under the direction of the leadership of that study, there is nothing wrong with a woman sharing what the Spirit of God has taught her out of the Word.

Can women pray in public if men are present?
Yes again. Acts 1:13-14 describes a prayer meeting where the disciples of Jesus as well as several women were present. There is a time and a place when it is perfectly appropriate for a woman to pray in public.

When Paul writes in 1 Timothy 2:11, "Let the woman learn in silence," he means that women are not to teach during the official meeting of the church. The responsibility of being the preacher, the teacher, or the one who leads in prayer is a role ordained for men.

Some women in the Ephesian and Corinthian churches were more concerned with their rights than their responsibilities to God and the church. What about you? Is your focus on getting or giving? Do you more frequently demand your rights or fulfill your responsibilities? Remember that Jesus came not "to be served, but to serve" (Matt. 20:28, NASB). If your focus has gradually changed from ministering to the needs of others to looking out for your own rights, you can help get it back where it belongs by memorizing Philippians 2:3-4.

...Both men and women can (under the right circumstances) proclaim God's truth. Do you regularly look for opportunities to share the truths of Scripture with your friends? your neighbors? your spouse? your children?

If you aren't regularly studying Scripture, make a commitment to the Lord to do it and then do it.

Regarding "women evangelists."
For example, Billy Graham's second daughter, Anne Graham Lotz (AGL). She actually is not preaching in a "church" or "worship" setting, so many say it's okay for her to go out and preach to large crowds (usually made up of "Believers," men and women), because this is not a "church" setting.

...Anne Graham Lotz is very wrong in what she is doing and is going against the principles outlined in the Word of God.

In the verses that speak about "women being silent in the churches," and "not to teach or to have authority over a man" [1 Tim 2:12], the context and the spiritual principle is that a woman is not to preach or teach in a "Church Ministry" to men, and in most cases women. The Church's ministry is not confined to a church building or a worship service. The ministry of the Church extends to Evangelists, Missionaries, Revival Meetings, any kind of public ministry of the Word, to include Bible Studies and Sunday School classes.

The very clear reason why God has restricted women from preaching and teaching the Word, in the role of a pastor, elder, teacher, evangelist, missionary, or other public ministry, is given to us in the Bible:

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." [1 Timothy 2:14]

...even when women teach other women, that they have to be very careful about what they are teaching. A woman leading a woman's Bible study could easily teach false doctrine.

The Bible indicates what areas women are to teach:

"....they [older women] can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God." [Titus 2:4-5]

Now, women are free to share anything from the Word when doing personal discipleship and witnessing.
Also, women can teach children, but always under the oversight of the Husband at home, and the church leaders when in a children's Sunday School class.

Another thought to bear in mind, is that no women were ever chosen to be priests in the Old Testament nor were they chosen as Apostles in the NT.

God did use a few women for "special" ministries of His choosing, for example, "a Prophetess" [Exodus 15:20, Judges 4:4, 2 Kings 22:14, Isaiah 8:3, Luke 2:36, Acts 21:9], but these were very limited in scope. ...The role of a Prophetess is not listed in the list of "gifts" given to the Church, by Christ, as listed in the Book of Ephesians:

"It was he [Jesus] who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up." [Ephesians 4:11-12]

There are a lot of churches that have women pastors...Why do they do that?

Well, there are a number of reasons. Some are historical: the Pentecostal church, from its inception almost, has had women pastors because in the main early on, it was generated largely by women. I think it was more experience-oriented than doctrinally-oriented. Consequently, women sort of led with that experience. There was not a strong theology; there was not a strong theological foundation to that movement at all. ...
Once ...you see that women have ministry and it seems that people get saved under their preaching and good things happen and so forth…and experience is your compelling issue; then, experience (not the Word of Truth, scripture) will dictate continuity to that.

As a footnote to that, perhaps it ought to be said that from a biblical standpoint, there is no tolerance in Scripture for women leaders in the church, apart from women leading other women--older women teaching younger women and leading their children and so forth.

What literally sent the human race down the proverbial drain was when woman stepped out from under submission, acted independently and sinned, taking the male role by leading. Man then, went under woman. He wasn’t even deceived! He just sinned because his wife sinned. And before you get too mad at him, think men: we’ve done things because our wife did them too. And if you were the only man in the world and she were the only woman, there might be a sort of a compelling there that otherwise wouldn’t be there.

But, Eve steps out from under the authority of Adam, Adam steps under the authority of Eve--the whole thing is convoluted. But it’s interesting to me that when we go back to who is responsible for man’s sin, Paul doesn’t say, “As in Eve, all died.” He says, “As in Adam, all died.” Because even though Adam vacated his role of leadership and Eve usurped it, God still held the leader responsible, and that means He sees male headship.

When you come into the New Testament, out of all the patriarchs it never says “the God of Rebekah,” it never says “the God of Sarah,” it never says “the God of [any woman]”; it’s “the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” It’s not the God of Rachel, not the God of Rebekah, not the God of Sarah. Why? Because God sees male headship. There was never a female priest. There was never a queen in northern or southern kingdom. There was no woman who wrote any book out of the 66 books of the Bible. There was no woman chosen to be an apostle. There were some women God uniquely used, as Deborah, to speak His Word on one occasion, though she--you remember--gave up the leadership role to a man.

So, there is a very clear indication in scripture, from front to back that leadership belongs to men....

Rachel Saint died. She was still with the Auca, still, in a sense, the spiritual leader although she never preached a sermon because she didn't want them to get used to women preachers. So from the very beginning, even though she was the only one that knew anything, she prepared all the sermons and taught them to a man who stood up and preached them so as they developed they knew that God wanted men to be the preachers and that's how it is today in their churches.

C.H. Spurgeon said: "We must show our zeal for the truth by continually, in season and out of season, endeavoring to maintain it in the tenderest and most loving manner, but still very earnestly and firmly. "

Therefore, according to scripture, and thus written on briefly here, women preachers truly are usurping the authority of God and the men who approve of it, will be held justly accountable. --- "(Remember, God in His Word of truth), does not say, “As in Eve, all died.” He says, “As in Adam, all died.” Because even though Adam vacated his role of leadership and Eve usurped it, God still held the leader responsible, and that means He sees male headship."--- MacArthur

For more comprehensive reading on this go to: The Counsel for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

Comments

Quoting the above linked article:

"One of the most significant changes in Western society over the century or two has been the shifting roles of men and women."

Quoting Scripture:
"Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

Our "cultural roles" may change, but our biblical ones do not.

Blessings
Sheshe

Posted by: sheshe | April 17, 2006 04:16 PM

I would typically delete "links only" posts that are especially not well thought out. However, I now allow immediate posting and will let this one go for 2 reasons:
1. What sheshe said is very appropriate.
2. I hope I am wrong, but this may be a blatant disregard for truth. I pray that you did not post that link because you agree with it, kimiam. In the future, write a sentence of explanation regarding your purpose for linking to something and be prepared to defend it ... especially if it be that far off from the truth.

Sometimes speaking the truth in love entails being firm. You have violated rule #3. Please respect the rules of engagement in future posts.

Ex Animo

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 17, 2006 05:03 PM

This series of posts is obviously being used by God in powerful ways. Do you know how you can know if that is the case? Look at the hornet's nest of comments you are receiving. The fact that God designed Men and Women differently with different roles is hard to swallow for anyone who does not understand God's Sovereign Grace. When those roles are violated there are adherent consequences. Our society is paying big time for that now. Let's pray that Christ's Church will be cleansed of it soon.

Nice Post Lisa.

Mike Ratliff

Posted by: Mike Ratliff | April 17, 2006 09:40 PM

Okay, so....prompted by 4given's encouragement, here goes.....a woman pastor that I am acquainted with will be performing her first marriage ceremony this summer. I learned that the reason this engaged couple chose her is simply that the future bride's mother is a non-believer, and a feminist. Their belief is that she will be more likely to tolerate a Christian wedding in a church if the ceremony is performed by a female minister.

My concern is this: If an individual with an unregenerate heart is "okay" with a Christian wedding as long as a female is performing the ceremony, what does this indicate in regards to the biblical acceptability of a female pastor?

(Just something else to consider in this discussion).

As I shared privately with 4given, when I first heard the circumstances, I had more bells and whistles going off in my head than a 5-alarm fire.

Posted by: LG | April 17, 2006 10:21 PM

When I first began blogging, I did not take it very seriously. The Lord, however, has grown me even in this area.
As a result of this, I have been blessed to "meet" and "converse" and be encouraged by people from all over the world.

I am honored that you all would consider stopping in here.

Littlegal... I appreciate what you have shared. Yes, such a thing makes you go "hmmmm." As far as the Biblical acceptability of a female Pastor... there is not one unless you twist scripture.

And Lorna, my friend, I know what I write here, you sweetly disagree with. I know what I write here goes against everything you are doing as a woman pastor. I do not point these things out to hurt. But sometimes speaking the truth in love can hurt. You may not be phased by anything I write here. I do pray it causes you to prayerfully and scripturally evaluate what you are doing. I pray you know I write these things sincerely, from the heart (ex animo).

Mike R., this topic is and probably will always be a hornet's nest. Which is sad. Most people avoid it. But as I have said, this divides my family and cuts to the heart of who I am as a woman in Christ. How can I not write about such things?

sheshe, you, of all the women I know (we use to go to church together) are a woman that stand out, a woman that exemplifies Biblical womanhood in your life. You are an inspiration to me by the grace of our Lord.

To Him be ALL the glory.

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 18, 2006 07:23 AM

hmmmmmmm. I have read your position on this and can't say that I disagree with you. I did, until hearing Mike R's perspective and agree that the mixing of roles in today's society has done quite a bit of damage and created much confusion. I would like to humbley caution you though on one thing. (something I'm sure you've prayed over) The New Testiment's greatest message is that the old law has been broken and we are gracefully left with a simple directive.
1) Love God with all your heart.
2) Love your neighbor as you would yourself.

With this in mind, there are many guidelines that Jesus still laid out for us. Those guidelines I see broken and violated by my fellow brother/sister every day. I can "gently correct" them in an effort to be God's holy crusader if I so choose to. I choose however to address the one's God chooses me to address and leave the others alone. Why? Simply because I know that there is another personvthat God chooses to use to impact that person more effectively than me. In the event that I choose to correct that person within my own strength or ability....I will fail. Therefore, Loving my neighbor as myself takes a higher priority over "gently correcting" my brother. You seem to have chosen this debate and handled it very well, I simply want to bring up the HIGHEST CALLING, Love God first and Love your neighbor as yourself. Loving God first doesn't always mean to go after every violation of the guidelines in sacrafice of the main Directives. If that were the case, We have learned nothing of the humility and Grace Jesus wants so desperately for us to live by.
Matthew 22: 36-40
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If this is a calling that you feel you must address, then all the power and grace to you sister! I commend you.

Posted by: Dan | April 18, 2006 09:23 AM

Dan,
My purpose in writing is to bring honor to the Lord which entails doing it out of a heart of love. Yes, our greatest command is to love. As a result of this love for Christ and for others, sometimes that means stepping out of your comfort zone, speaking the hard truth in love, and continually checking your motives. That is why I am thankful for my husband and for the Godly women the Lord has graciously put in my path. Accountability is important. I appreciate you posting this. It truly is a good reminder to all to remember to ask ourselves what is our motive. I do not consider myself a holier than thou holy crusader. I am a child of God. And we, as His children, should be ready to proclaim, within our God ordained roles, His uncompromising truth in gentleness and in boldness.

I did not go to Lorna. She came to me. Posted concerns, asked questions.

I cannot claim that I chose to write about such things. But, when the Lord lays something so heavily on your heart... there is only so long you can run like Jonah.

Ex Animo,
Lisa

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 18, 2006 10:09 AM

Dan--

I can unaquivocably assert that God chose our host for this debate. He is, as you and others have acknowledged, changing hearts & minds through this. And for others, who already were in agreement on this topic, we are being encouraged to "step out of our comfort zones, and to prepare our hearts to "speaking the hard truth in love," on this issue, at the appointed time.

Kimiam--

I have women pastors in my family, as well--we are in similar places in that regard. I will be in prayer for you.

Lisa--

Keep on, girl--keep on!

--"A 'little gal'"

Posted by: LG | April 18, 2006 10:56 AM

I can tell that your heart and motives are in the right place Lisa and for that I truly commend you for stepping out of an otherwise easy discussion to pass up on. God has obviously called you to this and for that I say....Praise Jesus for calling you to this and good on you for hearing and obeying him.

I never looked at what you were doing as a holier than thou type (and they do make themselves quite obvious) I just felt the need to throw up the friendly caution flag.

You however are clearly using a servant's heart in this discussion and once again I commend you for that.

Bless You!

Posted by: Dan | April 18, 2006 02:50 PM

Dear Friend, thank you for prayerfully presenting this biblical discussion and encouraging others to participate. I have learned a lot from the gracious way you have spoken with Lorna.

Kimiam, my heart rejoices at the stirrings God has brought to your own heart!! May He continue to teach you and guide you according to His Word and may you be a Light to others in your family.

Blessings
Ramona

Posted by: sheshe | April 18, 2006 03:49 PM

Although my theology is biblically based rather than experience based, I would like to share a tidbit of what God has done in my own life in regards to this subject.

My husband and I married when I was only 16 and he was 18. Not by choice, we waited almost 13 years to have our first child. These years of my life were filled with selfishness, stubbornness and femininism. My husband rarely stood up for himself because mine was a stronger personality and I simply would not allow him that privilege. I had little respect for him and most of the time we were off doing our "own thing".

When God finally blessed us with a child, I was a basket case. My world was turned upside down and my emotions were in a turmoil. My husband speaks of being afraid to come home from work during those times.

In the midst of this struggle, God led me to the first real church family I had ever been a part of. I began to learn more biblical marriage roles and slowly God helped me to begin putting them into practice. Although the changes were hardly noticeable at the time, I look back on those earlier times and am so ashamed of my actions. My poor husband was brow beaten - no wonder he did not lead the family, as I was doing a fine job of it myself! Or so I thought.

Over the next few years God brought me to full repentance of those sins and He also saved my husband's soul. The basket case Mom that I was with one child began to disappear as God began to bless us with more children. Oddly, I became calmer and more relaxed as our family grew and as I grew in my relationship with my Lord and Savior.

Today our family consists of 11 of our own children (8 adopted), one teenage cousin, my husband and I and his mother, all in the same house with our two large dogs. My husband will be the first to tell you that I am a much better wife than I ever was before God brought me into submission to His biblical model of marriage.

Although happiness is not the goal (serving God is the goal), it has been such a sweet gift from God these last few years. I often say that I would have laughed in anyone's face who told me in 1991 that I would someday have a dozen kids.

Forgive me if this wanders from the subject of women in the pulpit. Submission to God's inspired Word is the ultimate subject we must address, though, in every aspect of our lives.

Blessings,
Sheshe

Posted by: sheshe | April 18, 2006 04:09 PM

Sheshe,
You so did not wander off the subject. You are right in saying that it boils down to submisson to God's inspired Word. Your testimony here is inspiring and God glorifying. THank you for sharing it.
My mother was a feminist. That is why she left her 3 children when I was 6 to go find herself. She regrets it and tries to drink it away. She knows I love her and has given her permission for me to write about these things. Why? Because "maybe it will prevent another mother from leaving her children behind to follow after nothing worth anything."
But it goes beyond that... we know it takes the transforming power of God through Christ. My mother knows I pray that the Lord will do such a work in her life.

Thank you Dan. I am encouraged by your words. To God be ALL the glory. It is always more difficult to "write your heart"... if the readers could see my eyes... my tears, the appropriate reverential fear as I type...

Kimiam,
It is an honor to pray for you. You have a hard road ahead. I was reading Little Pilgrim's Progress by Helen Taylor to my children this morning. It is based on John Bunyan's work. Here is an excerpt:
Good will brought him out and showed him a narrow pathway which went straight across the plain.
"Are there any turnings?" asked Christian. "How shall I know if I come to a place where there are two roads."
"The Way of the King is always quite straight," said Goodwill, "and all the paths that lead out of it are crooked. And the wrong paths are generally wide, while the right path is narrow. If you look carefully, you will not mistake it."
I do not know the details of your life except what you have briefly shared here. What I do know is that what sheshe said is SO WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT.
That is my prayer for you... that you fix your gaze intently into the perfect Word of truth and not look away, but long to follow the narrow path in submission to God's inspired and holy Word.
No matter what.

All praise and honor and glory be to God.

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 18, 2006 05:19 PM

Littlegal,
I know you know what kimiam will be struggling with. You are one of those sweet sisters in Christ I have been so blessed to "meet" in this blogosphere. (and it's all Steve Camp's fault!!!) It is also a privilege to pray for you, my friend.

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 18, 2006 05:24 PM

hi Lisa (and friends)

the site that you recommended at the end states this

"How can you be in favor of women prophesying in church but not in favor of women being pastors and elders? Isn't prophecy at the very heart of those roles? "

I read what was written there,earlier - and I am still wondering what your view on this is Lisa (and dear readers)

Mike, hornet's nest? I think not. No-one's getting angry here, or hot under the collar as far as I can tell.

I am interested in your view, and your interpretation / application of the Bible; and willing to listen ... but I do want to be honest and say I find it rather sad that it sems that this is a one-channel conversation, and a circular argument at that.

Sheshe we ARE to submit to GOD in all we do - His Word -helps us to do that.

Sometimes though I am fearful that we elevate Paul above God, above Jesus Christ, some times we elevate the Word over the Spirit of God. We need it all - and we need it in balance. Scripture is important, but it's His spirit which makes it alive to us. We need Jesus' and compassion, but we need the love of the FAther in our lives too.

It's easy to become judgemental and caught up in being right, (we all sin in this way) but my experience is that truth without love is plastic love. REal love is hard. I mean, Do you love the whores and the publicans enough to meet with them, spend time with them to set them free. Jesus did. Do you love the tax collector enough to open your heart, your home and your fridge to him? etc

Jesus taught a lot, and ministered a lot - and he told them (and us) "anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

My understanding of this is that He went to the Father so that the disciples (and us) could receive the Holy Spirit. Why? So we would do His works, and by them, bring people into the Kingdom of God - but the Holy Spirit and Holy Scripture are literally worthless without His love, because without His love we can never get close enough to the ones who need him the most. As the Word says "Let us love one another for love comes from God" 1 Jn4:7 (there's so much more there - but you know it well!)

Jesus is the only way to salvation - on that we are agreed here. The question is what are we doing with our salvation while here on earth. That is something we - you and I - will be asked about on the threshold to heaven. what did you do with your talents? - how did you proclaim /preach the Good News?, how did you set people free from the enemy's lair?, how did you shine MY light into the darkness? Did your testimony count for anything, or did you hide it under the covers?

These questions are important - far more important IMHO than what the gender of the pastor happens to be. I know that is a choice my church has made and one which you find offensive - be that as it may - I still think that's what we'll be questioned about our life when we stand before God - not our theology.

"What you did for the least of my brethren you did for me" - that costs, stepping out of our comfort zone always does.

I came here by invitation. I saw a comment of Lisa's about Beth Moore, and Lisa came to my blog to invite me back ... and I've been happy to do so.

I had hoped there would be other discussion - because I am interested in what you think and how you apply scripture in a range of different ministerial areas - but it seems that women in ministry is the only topic right now, and it's as if we've come full circle.

So I leave you and bless you - in Jesus' name, my prayer is that He will reveal Himself to you more and more, that you'll come to know Him and His heart and that He fills you to overflowing with His loving kindness. Be blessed.

Posted by: Lorna | April 18, 2006 05:29 PM

Lorna,
I am not real sure why you can't push the "answer" link to read about prophesying in church. Is this what you want to discuss further?

All along this has been about woman's roles in ministry.

You wrote: "I find it rather sad that it seems that this is a one-channel conversation, and a circular argument at that."

--- this is a converstaion based on scripture. Alot of it has been brought forth here. Is it considered a "circular argument" because???? Please explain.

You wrote: "I am interested in your view, and your interpretation / application of the Bible; and willing to listen."

--And I too would love to here your interpretation of the scriptures in these matters. (I have stated earlier that this is not about My interpretation or MY tradition.) What other areas of the Bible would you like to discuss? My view of ???? Please elaborate.

You wrote: "Jesus is the only way to salvation - on that we are agreed here. The question is what are we doing with our salvation while here on earth. That is something we - you and I - will be asked about on the threshold to heaven. what did you do with your talents? - how did you proclaim /preach the Good News?, how did you set people free from the enemy's lair?, how did you shine MY light into the darkness? Did your testimony count for anything, or did you hide it under the covers?"

---Yes, Jesus is the only way. And in reading the post in its entirety, it addresses that the issue is not about hiding under the covers or not shining His light or proclaiming the Good News. It is ALL about obeying God, submitting to His God-ordained roles for us as we do these things for His glory. It is ALL about "submission to God's inspired Word."
How did you use your talents? Did you use them in such a way that you remained in submission to God and His ordained role for you... or did you step out of His will and take on a role ordained for a man. Please consider reading carefully and prayerfully the entire post again.

You wrote: "I had hoped there would be other discussion - because I am interested in what you think and how you apply scripture in a range of different ministerial areas."

--- then I genuinely ask that you be specific. Specifically ask one question at a time so that you will not think I am ignoring you or dancing around in circles. That way I can specifically answer each question, not thinking I had already addressed it.

Truly to God be ALL the glory in all that we write.

Ex animo, Lisa

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 18, 2006 06:12 PM

Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth

Go to the above link, Lorna. It is truly the most thorough, easy-to-read, must-read, comprehensive, courageous, invaluable, gracious, there is no debate, vital references that provides nothing less than the sound doctrine of God and His holy Word.
As Ligon Duncan said, "The only question now is whether we will bow our hearts to the authority of the Lord's inspired, inerrant, perspicuous Word on the matter of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood."

Please... read it. And I ask you, dear Lorna, are you willing to bow your heart to this inerrant truth?

I ask you this in all sincerity with a weeping heart, knowing that if you bow your heart to this, you will be giving up your livlihood as a woman pastor in exchange for your God-ordained role to minister to others in submission to His Divine will.

I cannot change you.
I pray the Lord does.

Soli Deo Gloria

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 18, 2006 07:01 PM

Lorna,

I wrote 2 comments above: "I am not real sure why you can't push the "answer" link to read about prophesying in church. Is this where you want to go with this "conversation"?"

I re-read that and thought it sounded rude of me. I totally missed the mark on trying to be funny. Please forgive me. If you have any other questions on that question after you push the "answer" link on that site, let me know.

Again, I do apologize if anything I have written has come across as rude. That is SO not my heart in this discussion or towards you.

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 18, 2006 07:22 PM

Greetings, You All

Perhaps the issue that we should be addressing here is not one of who should be in the position of "Pastor" but rather the density of Scripture and the fact that God's truth is not left up to one's own interperation
In a past comment Lorna wrote:
"I do respect you, your beliefs and your interpretation of the Bible, (And it is a question of interpretation - sola scriptura - is based on what we believe the Word to mean, our understanding of how it is to be applied in our lives)...

Also in comment in this stream Lorna wrote: "I am interested in your view, and your interpretation / application of the Bible; and willing to listen...

Lorna,
I believe your understanding of sola scriptura ("sola scriptura - is based on what we believe the Word to mean, our understanding of how it is to be applied in our lives") to be faulty.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB)
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB)
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Prayerfully pointing to truth,
N.L. White

Posted by: N. L. White | April 18, 2006 07:33 PM

That is true, N.L.

And I have said this before... it isn't about my interpretation or my tradition. These things are clearly stated in scripture.

Thank you.

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 18, 2006 07:46 PM

"You are one of those sweet sisters in Christ I have been so blessed to "meet" in this blogosphere. (and it's all Steve Camp's fault!!!)"

:-) He's been accused of worse "atrocities" than that in his lifetime, LOL.

Posted by: LG | April 19, 2006 02:15 PM

My question is: What is you and your church's position on allowing men and women to prophesy in the church.

In otherwords do you believe the Spirit of God instructs today - and speaks through people. (in different settings, including in church)

Posted by: Lorna | April 20, 2006 02:33 AM

I have forwarded your question on to my pastor. It is not my place to answer for my church.

What I would like to do is personally define a basic NT guideline of "to prophesy" based on Scripture.

Are Christians all prophets because we are recipients of and speakers of the Word of God?

Any valid "prophesy" must coincide with scripture without adding anything to the complete revelation and perfected Word of God nor taking away from it. The Spirit of God will never go against the Word of God. (that would be a house divided). God cannot disobey His own Word. He would be a liar. And He cannot lie.
God is not a God of disorder. Therefore, God has stated in His Word what is acceptable to Him from men and women in regards to all actions, ministries, etc., in different settings and in the church; which in so doing, to be God-honoring, will be accomplished while maintaining "equal in God' s image, yet different in roles."
"To prophesy" does continue today and should be done so under these basic guidelines.

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 20, 2006 01:23 PM

Thanks for your answer. I'd be interested to hear your pastor's opinion on this. And will leave it at that.

As for this

"Lorna,

Again, I do apologize if anything I have written has come across as rude. That is SO not my heart in this discussion or towards you."

Thank you for the apology. I must say it did sound a bit out of character (from what I've seen of you here - you are one lovely lady) - but I chose not to take offence. It achieves nothing.

Still I'm grateful for your gracious apology.

Be blessed

Posted by: Lorna | April 20, 2006 02:14 PM

"Closely related to the authority of Scripture is the inspiration of Scripture. Inspiration tells us how the Bible was transmitted from God to men. We find that the Bible draws its authority and inerrancy from the indisputible fact that it is inspired by God. The Bible teaches that "All Scripture is breathed out by God" (2 Timothy 3:16). The words the ESV translated as "breathed out by God" are also translated "inspired" and this is the basis of inspiration. This is explained further by the apostle Peter who writes, "no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:20,21). The Holy Spirit was actively involved in bringing God's words to humans. The actual form this inspiration took is much disputed. We know from reading the Scripture and observing the different styles of writing and differing levels of expertise in writing, that God did not merely use men as automatons. If He had done this, we would expect to find a consistent writing style throughout. Somehow God used the specific skills, backgrounds and situations of the authors to transmit His words. Zechariah 7:12 sheds light on this. "...lest they should hear the law and the words that the Lord of hosts had sent by his Spirit through the former prophets." We see that the ministry of the Holy Spirit extended to the whole and to the individual parts (...the words that the Lord of hosts...)... "God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"

"The Bible is more than a "best of" compilation of God's writings.
The term "canon" originally referred to a stick which was used for measurement. It later came to describe a standard or rule. By extension, it came to describe an authoritative list of something. In the case of Scripture, it speaks of the authoritative list of God's writings, yet it is more than a mere table of contents. It refers to all the writings that were breathed out by God (2 Timothy 3:16). Thus without the act of inspiration, there could be no canon (James White, Scripture Alone, page 101)."__TC

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 20, 2006 09:30 PM

LIST OF PROPHETS IN THE BIBLE:

Prophets and prophecy pervade the entire Bible with hundreds upon hundreds of references. The mention of prophets occurs most often in the history sections of the Bible (esp. Kings, Chronicles, Matthew, and Acts) and is also a focus in some of the New Testament epistles to churches (I Corinthians, Ephesians, and II Peter). For what it's worth, mention of prophets is scarce in the Wisdom books and not once found in II Corinthians. It's also interesting to note that the New Testament, comprising only a fifth of the Bible, contains one third of the Bible's references to prophets.

Following is a list of occurrences where a person is called a "prophet" or "prophetess" either by God or by an inspired writer of Scripture. This, therefore includes false prophets who were nevertheless called "prophets," and excludes writers whom we associate with the books of the prophets but did not have the appellation "prophet"--namely, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, and Malachi.

Old Testament

* Abraham (Gen. 20:7)
* Moses (Deut. 34:10, Hos. 12:13)
* Miriam (Ex. 15:20)
* Aaron (Ex.7:1)
* "A prophet" (Judges 6:8)
* Deborah (Judges 4:4)
* Samuel (I Sam. 3:20, 9:9)
* Gad (I Sam. 22:5, II Sam. 12:25, II Chr. 29:25)
* Nathan (II Sam. 7:2, Ps. 51, II Sam. 12:24, I Ki. 1, II Chr. 29:25)
* Ahijah (I Ki. 11:29, I Ki. 14)
* Old Prophet in Bethel (I Ki. 13)
* Man of God from Judah (I Ki. 13)
* Jehu (I Ki.16)
* Balaam (II Peter 2:16)
* Elijah (I Ki. 18, I Ki. 21, II Chr. 21:12)
* Prophets of Baal (I Ki. 18)
* Elisha (I Ki. 19:15, II Ki. 3-7)
* "A Prophet" (I Ki. 20:12)
* Micaiah (I Ki. 22)
* Zedekiah and 400 (false) prophets in the courts of King Jehosaphat (I Ki. 22)
* "Sons of the Prophets" at least 100 (I Sam. 10, I Sam. 19:20, I Ki. 18:4, II Ki. 1-5, II Ki. 9)
* Jonah (Book of Jonah, II Ki. 14: 23)
* Isaiah (II Ki. 19 & 20)
* Shemaiah (II Chr. 12:15)
* Iddo (II Chr. 12:15)
* Zachariah ben-Iddo (Ez. 5:1, Zech. 1:1)
* Azariah (II Chr. 15 & 28:9)
* Jehaziel (II Chr. 20:14)
* Zachariah ben-Jehoida (II Chr. 24:19)
* "A prophet" (II Chr. 25:15)
* Hulda (II Chr. 34:22, II Ki. 22:14)
* Jeremiah (II Chr. 36:12, Jer. 1:5, 26:7, ch.29)
* Haggai (Ezra. 5:1, 6:14, Hag. 1:1)
* Noadiah (false prophetess) Neh. 6:14
* "The Prophetess" (Isaiah's Wife?) Isa. 8:1ff
* Hannaniah and other false prophets (Jer. 26:11, Jer. 28)
* Shemaiah (false prophet) Jer. 29:27

New Testament

* John the Baptiser (Matt. 11:9)
* Jesus (Matt. 13:57, Luke 1:76, Luke 24:19)
* Zacharias (Luke 1:67)
* Anna (Luke 2:36)
* Agabus and other prophets from Jerusalem (Acts 11:27, 13:1, 21:9)
* Bar-Jesus (Elymas) false prophet (Acts 13:6)
* Judas (Acts 15:32)
* Silas (Acts 15:32)
* "The Holy Prophets" New Testament prophets (Eph. 3:5)
* Cretan prophet (Tit. 1:12)
* Jezebel (false prophetess) Rev. 2:20
* 2 Apocalyptic prophets (Rev. 11:3-10
* The False Prophet (Rev. 16:13, 19:20)

---NW

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 20, 2006 09:35 PM

John Calvin does not hold prophecy to be a gift in need of common use, he says, "The Lord raised up [apostles, prophets, and evangelists] at the beginning of His kingdom, and now and then revives them as the need of the times demands..."

A prophet in these days must not be adding revelation to Scripture... primarily what did all true Biblical prophets do? Didn't they call people to a right relationship with God?

"It is a general "feature of prophecy in the Scriptures [that it] finds its central point in Christ"--Strong's

Mysticism confuses the source of truth by removing the foundation of the Scriptures as the basis for all truth and substituting human reason or personal feelings as the basis for truth. This error has existed in the Church from its earliest years until the present time, when it is commonly heard in Evangelical circles, "I feel God is saying..."

If you want to know what God is saying, read your Bible!

Check the fruit! Test the spirits! Compare notes with the principles laid down in the Bible's prophets and the Apostle's teachings! And, in the words of Jeremiah, who dealt more with false prophets than any other Biblical writer, "Let not your prophets deceive you." (Jer. 29:8)

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 20, 2006 10:06 PM

"Here is the first thing every believer needs to know:

***The Bible alone is the infallible rule of faith for the church.***

This is known in theological circles as the doctrine of Sola Scriptura or Scripture Alone. This may seem to be quite an obvious doctrine to some, yet I would encourage you to keep reading to examine if you really do believe this, to see how an improper view of this doctrine can taint your walk with Christ, and to learn how a strong view of the Scripture's authority is necessary for a strong and living faith."---TC

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 20, 2006 10:14 PM

"Illumination refers to God’s work in the lives of believers to make us able to believe and understand the words of the Bible. This does not mean the Spirit gives us new revelation – rather He applies to our lives the truths contained in His existing revelation. While illumination depends on prior revelation, it must be differentiated from it. You and I cannot expect God’s direct special revelation in our lives. Instead we have the privilege of looking to his full and final revelation in the Scripture and having assurance that the Spirit will illumine those words for us. Many Christians confuse these. When they suddenly come to understand a deep truth in Scripture, they may believe that God has spoken to them, seemingly indicating a type of revelation. What has happened, though, is that God has illumined their hearts to understand a truth from His word.

We see many examples of God’s illumination in the Bible. King David, in writing Psalm 119 asked the Lord “Give me understanding, that I may observe your Law.” In the twenty fourth chapter of Luke Jesus, when appearing to the disciples after His resurrection, “opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.” Following His ascension, He sent the Holy Spirit to be our guide and to illumine the Scriptures for us. Paul referred to this many times, often praying that his readers would experience it. Perhaps the clearest example is in Ephesians 1:17-18 where we read “…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints…” Today we continue to experience the privilege of having the Holy Spirit work through us to bring light to the Scriptures.

Illumination is what separates believers from unbelievers when we read the Bible. An unbeliever may read the Word and view it merely as a religious or historical document, much like I would read the Koran or the Book of Mormon. But when a Christian reads the Bible, the Spirit guides him to see not merely history and religion, but the very words of God. And even more important, He allows the person to apply the great truths of the Bible to his life. He initiates change through the words of the Scripture. Being a Christian, then, is a necessary prerequisite for the Spirit’s illumination.

I would like to address a couple of misconceptions regarding illumination. It would be easy to think that with the Spirit’s help we can understand everything the Bible contains, but this is not necessarily so. We know there are some concepts that are too great for us and that God has chosen to remain hidden to us. For example, with the Spirit’s illumination we can see the Trinity in the Bible, but we can never truly understand the inner workings of the godhead and truly comprehend how three can be one. Similarly we may not ever know why God allows certain events to happen while keeping other ones from ever taking place.

We might also wistfully think that the illumination of the Spirit precludes us from doing thorough, carefully study of the Bible, but again, this is not so. While we trust the Holy Spirit to guide us as we study His word, we must still labor to fulfill the Bible’s commands to “cut it straight” – to accurately handle the word. In this way we can have assurance that the Spirit has, indeed, helped us to see truth and not error. As with most other things in life, God still commands us to work hard and to dedicate ourselves to the task. Just as we would not sit back and expect God to provide for us financially when we refuse to do useful labor, in the same way we should not expect Him to illuminate the Word for us when we are not diligent in seeking the truth." ---TC

That is my prayer for you Lorna and Kimiam... and all of us, actually. That we are diligent in seeking the truth in God's Word.

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 20, 2006 10:26 PM

erm Lisa (confession I haven't yet read all of this) but just a quick thought came into my mind (wanting to check where we do understand things the same ...)

What do you mean when you write you've prayerfully considered something?

I'm not being funny or facitious or anything ... I'm genuinely interested.

tx and Blessed Friday

Posted by: Lorna | April 21, 2006 01:42 AM

Prayerfully considered: To Pray about something the Lord has weighed heavily on my heart while carefully weighing what I am praying about and the things considered against scripture. At times in the process of prayerfully considering something, it entails getting counsel from my husband, pastor, proven godly women.

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 21, 2006 06:19 AM

...manhood is not sexual exploitation. Manhood is not cool, rational unemotionalism. Manhood is not the ruthless task-oriented drive to conquer. Etc. So be liberated, men! On the other hand womanhood is not boring domesticity. Womanhood is not homebound motherhood. Womanhood is not mindless emotionalism. Womanhood is not sexual compliance. Etc. So be liberated, women!...It is simply an abdication of our moral and spiritual responsibility to tell young people to avoid negative stereotypes and then not give them a positive, practical, Biblical vision of what it means to be a man and or a woman. And one of the reasons we abdicate our responsibility is because it is the path of least resistance. It's easy to tear down negative stereotypes; but it's hard and risky work to rebuild the positive archetype.

No one will criticize you if you poke holes in ugly stereotypes of manhood and womanhood. That's a very safe and customary pastime. But a hundred people wait to be your judge if you try to develop a positive vision for your daughters of what it means to be feminine, or for your sons of what it means to be masculine. And so by and large we don't do it. And we leave them confused — telling them what its not but not telling them what it is....God has a vision for a redeemed manhood and womanhood. He wants us to recover what we've lost because of sin. ...What we are as male and female goes to the heart of our personal identity. If we are confused here, the repercussions will be very profound and pervasive.--- Piper

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 21, 2006 06:39 AM

"The true Christian was intended by Christ to prove all things by the Word of God, all churches, all ministers, all teaching, all preaching, all doctrines, all sermons, all writings, all opinions, all practices. These are His marching orders. Prove all by the Word of God; measure all by the measure of the Bible; compare all with the standard of the Bible; weigh all in the balances of the Bible; examine all by the light of the Bible; test all in the crucible of the Bible. That which can abide the fire of the Bible, receive hold, believe, and obey. That which cannot abide the fire of the Bible, reject, refuse, repudiate, and cast away. This is the flag which He nailed to the mast. May it never be lowered!"

John Wycliffe

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 21, 2006 06:50 AM

Bottom line--the Word of God is the FINAL authority on everything- particularly on words of knowledge, prophecies, visions, and other such "giftings"-

From Steve Camp:
A few years ago I was ministering in concert at a prominent Midwest Christian college. During the concert of about 2,500 people attending, a young man stood up in the middle of the auditorium and shouted to me, "Brother Steve, I have a word from the Lord for you." Taken a bit back by his rudeness, but impressed with his courage, I asked him politely, "OK, what Bible verse did you want to share with me?" He said, "Oh no, this is a word directly from God for you personally." I said back to him, "I know every verse is penned by the Lord--it is all directly from Him to us... So what Bible verse did you want to share with me?" Becoming more and more frustrated at his inability to 'woo' me to his words of "divine revelation," I finally agreed to let him speak with one condition (and believe me, I was being generous in letting it go this far); I told him, "Everything you say must agree perfectly with God's final revelation in His Word. If anything you say, no matter how trivial, disagrees with Scripture, then I will have to rebuke you in front of all these people and then we will all have to take you outside and stone you to death!" With those ground rules stated, he thought for a moment and then said these profound words, "Maybe it was a feeling I had?" I said, "Good answer man--now sit down."

I share that story with you to poignantly illustrate the confusion there is today about divine revelation, biblical truth, and ultimately, what constitutes genuine, authentic biblical worship. Worship cannot be about my feelings or personal moorings based on what I think God is mystically communicating to me in a supernatural way. Worship must be based on truth and our response to truth; His truth--solely upon the truth of God's Word. I agree with Martin Luther when he said, "the highest form of worship is hearing God's Word with an obedient life and then living in submission to its truth."

To read the whole thing go here: Worship Wars

Posted by: 4ever4given | April 21, 2006 07:08 AM