III. Evangelical Feminist Claims from the Gospel and Acts
"It leaves us vulnerable to deception if we do not have a high view of specific application of truth to our lives."--C.J. Mahaney
Here is my THIRD post of the now weekly weekend postings from Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth by Wayne Grudem.
(Go to this link to read: The Simple Gospel)
As an Evangelical Christian woman, I acknowledge Scripture as my ultimate authority over any experiential observation. We should never be surprised to find a "measure of blessing attached to the preaching of God's Word, regardless of who is doing the preaching. For the Lord has promised to be faithful to HIS Word (Is. 55:11), and that promise is not compromised by the disobedience of any given pastor. For example, do you think God approved of the motives of Paul's enemies in their preaching? (Php. 1:15-17) Experience does not decide this issue! Scripture alone does!"
***Remember to respect the 5 rules of engagement on the left sidebar and do not contact anyone who leaves comments on my blog regarding this discussion without getting their permission here.
Go to the pages listed in parentheses to read the entire claim and answers from the on-line book link above. These are just excerpts.
(pg. 159) Jesus treated women with great honor and dignity. He surprised the Jewish people of his day in the way He interacted with and honored women as well as men, including several women among the group of disciples who followed Him. He even chose women to be the first witnesses to his resurrection. Don't Jesus' example and teaching show that He is overthrowing the patriarchal bias against women that was found in the Old testament and in the Judaism of His day? Doesn't His example show that we should allow women and men equal access to all positions of leadership in the church?...Egalitarian CLAIM 5.1: JESUS’ TREATMENT OF WOMEN: Jesus undermined the patriarchal nature of first-century Judaism through his positive treatment of women. (159)
Answer 5.1a: It is true that Jesus undermined abuses of male leadership found in some parts of Jewish society, and treated women with great respect and dignity. (160)
Answer 5.1b: But Jesus did not overthrow all male leadership, because he consistently called only men to the roles of governing and teaching God’s people. (161)
Egalitarian CLAIM 5.2: JESUS AND MARY: When Jesus praised Mary and corrected Martha (Luke 10:38–42), he overturned the expectations that a patriarchal culture placed on women. (161)
Answer 5.2a: Jesus overturned some expectations, but the text does not say he overturned all expectations. (162)
Answer 5.2b: This egalitarian argument imports ideas into the text that are not there. (163)Egalitarian CLAIM 5.3: FIRST WITNESSES TO RESURRECTION: Women were the first witnesses to the resurrection (Matt. 28:1–10), showing their reliability and suitability as messengers of the Lord. Therefore they can surely be pastors. (164)
Answer 5.3a: Yes, women were the first witnesses to Christ’s resurrection, and this is a wonderful affirmation of the trustworthiness of women and their equal dignity as persons made in God’s image, in contrast to some ideas in first-century culture. (165)
Answer 5.3b: But to give testimony as an eyewitness of a historic event is not the same as functioning as a teacher or elder in a church. Women did not do this in the NT. (165)Egalitarian CLAIM 5.4: JESUS’ HUMANITY IS IMPORTANT, NOT HIS MALENESS: Jesus’ humanness, not his maleness, allowed him to represent all humanity, both men and women. (166)
Answer 5.4a: We are not free to pick and choose some attributes of Jesus’ person as important and some as unimportant. (166)
Answer 5.4b: The pattern of male headship from the beginning of creation argues for the importance of Jesus’ maleness to represent all believers. (166)
Answer 5.4c: Some complementarians argue that Christ’s maleness shows that all pastors should be male as representatives of Christ. But all complementarians see Christ’s maleness as indicating a pattern of male leadership among God’s people. (167)Egalitarian CLAIM 5.5: SERVANT LEADERSHIP IS IMPORTANT, NOT AUTHORITATIVE LEADERSHIP: Jesus taught servant leadership, and this is inconsistent with a male leadership pattern of use of power over others. (167)
Answer 5.5.a: Jesus was both a servant and a leader with great authority. (168)
Answer 5.5b: Elders should likewise use authority with a servant heart. (168)Egalitarian CLAIM 5.6: ANTICIPATE HEAVEN: Since Jesus taught that gender issues will no longer matter in the next life (Matt. 22:30), we should do what we can even now to eradicate many male–female distinctions. (168)
Answer 5.6a: We should obey the New Testament commands for the church age. (169)
Answer 5.6b: This reasoning would lead us to abolish marriage today as well! (169)
Answer 5.6c: The Bible says people will not marry in heaven, but it does not say there will be no male or female in heaven. (169)Egalitarian CLAIM 5.7: CULTURAL REASONS FOR MALE APOSTLES: The fact that Jesus appointed only men to be apostles was a mere concession to the culture of his time; it is not normative for us today. (170)
Answer 5.7a: Jesus never compromised with the culture of his time in matters of moral right and wrong. (171)
Answer 5.7b: The maleness of the apostles established a permanent pattern for male leadership in the church. (172)
Answer 5.7c: But the Jewishness of the twelve apostles was only a temporary pattern because Jesus came first to the Jews. (172)Egalitarian CLAIM 5.8: NO SPECIAL AUTHORITY FOR APOSTLES: There was no special authority for the twelve apostles, nor was the original group of twelve very significant. (173)
Answer 5.8a: The New Testament sees the original apostles as very significant. (173)
Answer 5.8b: Jesus himself chose a replacement for Judas. (174)
Answer 5.8c: The apostles had much greater authority than the rest of the church. (174)Egalitarian CLAIM 5.9: GIFTS TO ALL: Since the Holy Spirit is now poured out on all believers, both men and women (Acts 2:17–18), and since the Holy Spirit gives gifts to both men and women (1 Cor. 12:7, 11; 1 Pet. 4:10), there should be no restriction on the ministries available to both men and women. (175)
Answer 5.9a: I agree that the Holy Spirit gives both men and women spiritual gifts in this age. (175)
Answer 5.9b: However, the Holy Spirit works within the boundaries laid down in his Word, the Bible. (176)
Answer 5.9c: Women who have teaching and administrative gifts should be able to use them in many ministries that do not include being an elder or doing Bible teaching to assembled groups of men and women. (176)Egalitarian CLAIM 5.10: PRISCILLA TAUGHT APOLLOS: Since Priscilla and Aquila both explained to Apollos “the way of God more accurately” (Acts 18:26), women can teach men in the church. (177)
Answer 5.10a: Scripture encourages men and women to talk with each other about the Bible and Christian doctrine. (178)
Answer 5.10b: To say that there is no distinction between private and public teaching is to ignore the two fundamental factors of interpretation: the words of the text and the context. (178)
Answer 5.10c: Priscilla’s example does not give warrant for women to teach the Bible to the assembled church. (179)Egalitarian CLAIM 5.11: PRISCILLA IS NAMED FIRST: Since Priscilla’s name is put before Aquila’s name, especially when they are in ministry situations, this indicates that she was the leader in their ministry team. (179)
Answer 5.11a: It is difficult to know what, if anything, was meant by the order of names. (180)
Egalitarian CLAIM 5.12: TABITHA AS LEADER: Peter raised Tabitha from the dead because of her leadership role. (181)
Answer 5.12a: Bilezikian is importing into the Bible things that are not there. (181)





My Husband, My brother in Christ














Comments
Lisa
very brief as I'm just recovering from surgery.
I didn't comment on your pastor's post - would seem to break the 'we love our pastor' party too much
can I ask (prob just being a bit dumb here- sorry! might be the post op medication!) what are the number in brackets referring to ?
Posted by: Lorna | April 29, 2006 07:50 AM
erm isn't this the SECOND post (can't find another one) and what were chapters 2, 3 and 4 about in the book?
I know you said you weren't going to deal with it all - but I'd find a short summary helpful I think
(My pc has taken a great dislike to this in pdf format - no idea why. Me? I find it very interesting :)
be blessed and thanks for prayer for my surgery. ALl went ok but I'm very tired and enjoying r&r at home
Posted by: Lorna | April 29, 2006 07:56 AM
Hey Lorna... I'll keep praying for you.
This is actually the 3rd post... but the 1st one may not really count because it was more like a *warning* that I was going to post from the book every Friday.
I jumped to chapter 5 because of the "conversation" between you and roadkill about Christ and I thought this was relevant to that discussion. I will, however, jump back to those other chapters in the next postings. I wish I could post the entire book. It is excellent.
As a matter of fact... when this book discussion posting is complete, I'll send you a copy.
The numbers in the brackets are referring to what page number that section can be found in the book. I will continue to do that.
Did anything about this post really stand out to you or cause you to be convicted about being a female pastor... (grin)?
Much love and prayers to you, Lorna...
Posted by: 4ever4given | April 29, 2006 09:29 AM
Also Lorna... If you want me to elaborate on any of the claims and answers, let me know.
Posted by: 4ever4given | April 29, 2006 10:26 AM
Thanks fpr posting that Lisa. I am enjoying this series tremendously.
Mike
Posted by: Roadkill | April 29, 2006 10:53 AM
I thought this was pretty interesting
Egalitarian CLAIM 5.7: CULTURAL REASONS FOR MALE APOSTLES: The fact that Jesus appointed only men to be apostles was a mere concession to the culture of his time; it is not normative for us today. (170)
Answer 5.7a: Jesus never compromised with the culture of his time in matters of moral right and wrong. (171)
Answer 5.7b: The maleness of the apostles established a permanent pattern for male leadership in the church. (172)
Answer 5.7c: But the Jewishness of the twelve apostles was only a temporary pattern because Jesus came first to the Jews. (172)
I've never thought about this before :) but your author's answers made me think why wouldn't we argue that Jesus came first to the men (grin) I think you know what I'm getting at here. I've never argued it that way, but it seems that your author has at least wondered about it.
I also liked the section on marriage. We hold monogomy and marriage to one man/woman for life as a Christian value. And well we should. But the Bible says very very little about it actually. What say you
(apologies that these aren't well thought out. I'm still not 100% after my op - and taking it easy)
Lisa, Add more of your comments will you. What you think and why. I find that most interesting. Like todays when you were bursting with excitement. I think that passion is from God and it's so so so important. Shout it from the moutaintops!
Posted by: Lorna | May 2, 2006 12:46 PM
Actually the Bible has much to say about marriage. Here are a few scripture references:
Gen 2:`8-25 (it was instituted and designed by God)
Gen 2: 18, 24 (they are to be united and become one flesh)
Eph 5:23, 31-32 (It is similar to the relationship between Christ and the church)
Eph 5:23 (the husband is the head of the wife)
Eph 5:25( Husbands must love their wives as Christ loved the church)
Eph 5:25-33, Col 3:19 (husbands must exercise headship in love)
I Pe 3:7 (husbands must treat their wives with respect and as equal heirs of God's gifts)
Gen 2:18 (a wife is to be a suitable helper for man)
Prov 31 (a wife is to be of noble character that uses her gifts faithfully)
Col 3:18 (a wife is to submit ti her husband as is fitting to the Lord)
Eph 5:22-24 and I Pe 3:1-2 (wives are to be submissive to husbands as to the Lord)
Gal 5:15, Mt 5:23-24, Rom 12:18, Mt 12:25 (they are not to destroy each other, but quickly pursue peace)
I Cor 7:9 (Because of immorality, let each man have his own wife and each woman have her own husband)
In regards to marriage:
“to leave” The Greek word leipo means “to leave.” But the word used here is an intensified form, kataleipo, and means “to abandon completely.
“to be joined” The Greek word used here is proskollao, an intensification of the word kollao, which means “to connect us.” Proskollao means “to glue together.” The idea is that you are to leave, and then you are to glue the new relationship together. It is a new relationship, absolutely unbreakable. Two become one.
Posted by: 4ever4given | May 3, 2006 06:26 AM
In regards to 5.7:
Why did Jesus not appoint 6 women and 6 men as His disciples? Because He intentionally chose 12 men for the purpose of maintaining the male headship model. Jesus never gave in to cultural pressure. Actually, He broke "social customs" when He felt it was necessary (e.g. Samaritan woman). And if you think about it, Jesus did not exactly "choose" disciples based on "social acceptability"... a tax collector, poor fishermen, uneducated and common MEN. All men. Christ's mission was to oppose all that violated the will of God. He restored women to a position of dignity, but never to male headship. Claiming this to be a cultural issue is not consistent with Jesus' ENTIRE MINISTRY. Even in the heavenly city, there will be a reminder of the male headship (Rev.21:14). The very foundation of the church of Christ is male headship... 100%. Even Gentiles had leadership roles in the New Testament that never included a female elder. If Christ wanted women to be in headship roles, He would not have hesitated to appoint them. He was far more concerned for the will of God, than the culture established by men. And the will of God is clear that women are not to teach or rule over men.
Love in Christ,
Lisa
Posted by: 4ever4given | May 3, 2006 07:07 AM