"...finding out who I am in Christ..."

I Peter 3:1,5; Eph 5:21, 22; Col 3:18; Titus 2:5

A woman is to submit herself in the church family in theway she submits herself in marriage. She is not to take the leadership over men or to teach over men. Rather, in her church, she is to support, encourage, and actively help the men in their leadership role (Gen 2:18). By far, this is not discrimination against women. It is divine design.

Just one thing Lisa ... you wrote above

You've all heard the arguments in favour of women in ministry many times I'm sure -and rejected them - ---to clarify: we do not reject women in ministry. We scripturally reject women as preachers having authority over men.

When I've used women in ministry here I've meant a teaching (pastoring) ministry. I do understand that you are ok with women doing other God ordained ministries - just not preaching and / or teaching (of men)

The other thing I also understand is that you do not reject women who do this (even if it might be abhorent to you scriptually) you've made it clear that you separate the sinner from the sin (as you see it)

I just wanted to clarify I did understand your position - but the terms I used might have made you think I had. Sorry.

Be blessed over Easter. I prob won't have much computer time over the holidays -as well as Easter my son turns 16 this weekend

Be blessed. I love your godly spirit. You are a wonderful inspiration to many

Hey Lorna,
I prayerfully enabled immediate posting of comments... I deleted the part you said not to post.

I understand about not much computer time through this holiday. (that made me chuckle to read that you vacuumed up a computer key... been there.)

This will be my last post for probably a week. THough I will be checking comments and making comments when appropriate on this post.

I pray you come back when time allows. Your interaction and contribution has been valuable.

It proves that though we do not agree, we can still maintain God honoring attitudes through it without compromising Christ in our attitudes.

I pray you have a blessed celebration of the resurrection of Jesus, Lord and Saviour, son of God.

An important question:

What is a woman's role if she is alone to minister to a group of men who need to be taught the Word of God. Is it permissible for her to teach them?

Answer:

...if there is no one there but a woman who knows the truth, then she is obligated to communicate the truth. But what she does not want to do is establish herself as a pastor; she doesn't want to establish herself as the under-shepherd of Christ in a Church. In fact, in the history of the Jewish people, and it shows up in the Philippian Church, the Apostle Paul went to Philippi and there was no synagogue there--there was no synagogue there and Jewish women met down by the river because they couldn't constitute a synagogue without a certain number of men. I think the number was eleven, before they could have a group of elders who could lead a synagogue--they couldn't even establish one. In deference to the biblical pattern, which they recognized, they simply met to worship the true God down by the river. I think that at that point, if they were the only ones who knew the truth they would be obligated to instruct, but they would need to wait for the full development of a church when God sent along male leadership.

A way to answer that anecdotally: Patricia and I traveled some years ago down in the jungles of Ecuador. Some of you will remember back in 1956, when the missionaries to Ecuador were slaughtered, you remember, by the river down there--the famous, famous story--Nate Saint and his friends who were killed there; five missionaries murdered by the Auca Indians. Well, the sister of Nate Saint: Rachel Saint, who's name is well known to people in mission work, was determined that she would go down there and reach those people that had killed her brother and his friends. They landed a plane on a river; they were trying to reach these people and they massacred them. She went down there and God used her greatly. She was a woman in that situation and she made a determination that she wouldn't send the church down a course from which it would be hard to recover, so she determined that she would never allow those people to view her as the leader, or the pastor, or in an ultimate sense--the teacher. So what she did was, in an individual way, she endeavored to lead the natives to Christ--one on one. Her story is just a remarkable story; we have met her of course. What she did was; she was enabled by God to lead some individuals to Christ. She determined that one of them would be a capable teacher and so she established the meeting, a regular meeting of the people for the presentation of the gospel; she prepared the lessons and she taught them to (a tribal man) and had him teach them to the people. She did that for the very reason that she didn't want to become the teacher and the pastor whom everybody would adore and love and view as their teacher, and then try to alter that somewhere down the path. So very wisely, and very thoughtfully, and obediently, I might add, to Scripture, she being the only person with the truth found a way to do that without violating the principles of Scriptures.

What a beautiful morning. I had the privilege of enjoying sitting on my deck as I read and studied the Word of God while listening to birds chirping at 5am. My favorite time to study God's Word... when the 6 children get up, there is no more "silence". Which is not a big deal. I like most of their "noises" and I enjoy being around them.
I like having opportunities through the day to get onto my blog and write what the Lord is impressing on my heart. My computer is in my kitchen, so I can grab a moment here and there without neglecting my call to homemaking.

I consider it a privilege to pray for people throughout the day. Especially my family, but also my church family, friends and people I have met all over the world thru this blog.

Welcome Kimiam and anonymous posters. I will be posting in the next few days a Biblical defense regarding what you and others have said on this topic. So hang in there and be prepared to defend your position with scripture in a way that brings honor to Christ.

Looks like both anonymous posters gathered info from both John MacArthur and Alexander Strauch (?). Both excellent resources.

I have no problem with anonymous posters... but to do so, you must reveal to me your e-mail. It will not be revealed to anyone but me. As you have probably noticed, you cannot leave an anonymous post without revealing your e-mail... but you do not have to have a URL.

I recommend you all hop over to CampOnThis. It is Steve Camp's blog. He has put up an excellent post regarding the suffering of Christ on the cross. The celebration of this weekend is about His resurrection. But to give you a glimpse of what it took for Christ to come to that point of being forever alive so that His children can be forever alive in paradise, it is important to reflect on the cross.

I loved the story of the lady among the Indians. She showed courage, but also how ANY missionary should work.i.e. work in such a way that your absence will not leave a vacuum. Teach a person/ a small group of locals the truth of the Gospel. They will usually be there long after the missionary has to return home and can continue to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ.

I honour people who are willing to do this - they are the force that God uses mightily - but who take little - if any - glory. It all goes to God. Just as it should.

That lady however did step out in obedience to God and had to teach a man (and I ofcourse have no problem with that. -smile)

What I find a little intriguing is the writer who wrote about the people in Philipii meeting by the river rather than in a synagogue as s/he put it "In deference to the biblical pattern" I wonder where you find that in scripture? It was the custom I agree- but hardly scriptural as far as I know. You might be intrested to know that in Russia and Estonia today you need "10 competent adults" to form a congregation and call it "church"

...and for me church is the body of Christ - we are many (different gender, differnet backgrounds and interpretation) but we are on in Christ - because we share the one bread.

This Easter that's given me a lot of hope and encouragement.

Be blessed

On a "Lost Lamb Hunt" with my children and neighbors... will respond Monday.

kimiam said:
"I agree with Lorna and I think you are failing, utterly failing to see the truth here.

You are failing to take into account the countless women God has used historically and presently that are in leadership roles. He has to use them because we are in a famine right now, and even if we were not in a familne, it is clear in scripture that it is permissable. "

R.L. Dabney said this...
"The arguments advanced by those who profess reverence for the Bible, in favor of this unscriptural usage, must be of course chiefly rationalistic. They do indeed profess to appeal to the sacred history of the prophetesses, Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, and Anna, as proving that sex was no sufficient barrier to public work in the church. But the fatal answer is, that these holy women were inspired. Their call was exceptional and supernatural. There can be no fair reasoning from the exception to the ordinary rule. Elijah, in his civic relation to the kingdom of the ten tribes, would have been but a private citizen without his prophetic afflatus. By virtue of this we find him exercising the highest of the regal functions (I Kings 18), administering the capital penalty ordained by the law against seducers into idolatry, when he sentenced the priests of Baal and ordered their execution. But it would be a most dangerous inference to argue hence, that any other private citizen, if moved by pious zeal, might usurp the punitive functions of the public magistrate. It is equally bad logic to infer that because Deborah prophesied when the supernatural impulse of the Spirit moved her, therefore any other pious woman who feels only the impulses of ordinary grace may usurp the function of the public preacher. It must be remembered, besides, that all who claim a supernatural inspiration must stand prepared to prove it by supernatural works. If any of our preaching women will work a genuine miracle, then, and not until then, will she be entitled to stand on the ground of Deborah or Anna."
R.L. Dabney

sorry for the double post but I had more to ask.

kimiam said:
"...it is clear in scripture that it is permissable."

I ask you, kimiam, where is scripture thusly "clear"?

If there is any clarity on this issue i belive it to found in the passages that clearly lay out what a womans role is. And Preaching is not one of them. exceptions are all too often used by believers (myself included) as rules. God will do as He wills. And He will do so without violating who He is But we are to let God deal with "special situations" while we stick to the "whole counsel of God"

This is an interesting statement:

"He has to use them because we are in a famine right now..."

How can an infinite God who created the world and holds all of time in His hands "have" to do something? Why does He have to "use them"? For what purpose? Famines can be spiritually rich times for God's people. "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." James 1:1-4

What we consider famines can in fact be times God is using to draw us closer to Him. One of the ways we can come nearer to Him during these times is to study His Word and work harder at following His commands and directives.

God is the creator of the universe. He is not forced into using methods that go against His Holy and inspired Word. We are the sinful ones who try to take things into our own hands when our situation becomes uncomfortable and scary.

Roadkill "usurp" is a very strong word. Not used by you but by an author you quote.

In many churches (Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian and even a few Pentecostal -Assemblies of God congregations) the MALE leadership have prayerfully voted on the question of women in ministry and accepted women as pastors/priests/ministers.

usurp? I think not.

I for instance would never preach to a congregation without an invitation, and without sumbmission to the person in authrority (be it bishop or district superintendent or president (or any other title)

I do understand that for your church the leadership have not accepted women to preach /teach (from the pulpit / to a mixed congregation) and I accept and respect that.

I am very much enjoying the discussion, but don't have time to post my thoughts on it. I would just say in general that I completely agree with you Lisa. It is not a woman's place to preach or put herself in a place of authority over men.

This is the most edifying and loving discussion I have ever seen on this topic and am very impressed with everyone's attitude (that you posted). Leaves me with a wonderful feeling.

Take care,
Leigh

To God be ALL the glory, Leigh.

I agree Leigh. It is lovely that the previaling attitude here is love.That makes ALL the difference.

Be blessed