Tony Capoccia... NOT Tony Campolo

WOW Mr. Campolo...err... I mean Mr. Capoccia said that very well. I enjoyed the Jonah portion. This is a lot to think about. Do earthly "results" (even and especially when they are achieved apart from God's word) actually equal God's work?

hmm...

Mike

This makes complete sense scripturally to me, Roadkill. Often we do things that give the appearance of "good works" for the glory of God... but are they? How do we know? Shouldn't we be checking them against the Word of God?
Truly, even our most saintly prayers and efforts andthoughts and pursuits are all tainted with sin. Everyone istruly guilty, even Christians, of taking advantage of God (like our Pastor was saying last night at church)... truly we all really do deserve God's wrath. It is especially toward the de-facing of God's truth that He is justifiably wrathful... PRAISE GOD that He is slow to anger and perfectly good for the purpose of not being willing that any of His children should perish, but all should come to repentance. I pray I do not think lightly of God's forebearance, His longsuffering.

Remember in his sermon, Pastor Ed said that the first characteristic of an "ALMOST" Christian is one who has been "enlightened" without being born again into the Spirit of God. He quoted Pink, "... the Holy Spirit renews the understanding of the elect, but with the non-elect, he only "enlightens" it."

Enlighten being like a photo instead of the real thing. They have been given a picture of who God is, but it is only a photo.

"The challenge of Christian Living is to increasingly match your practice with your position."---John MacArthur.

As a Christian, am I just sharing a photo of Jesus... or am I sharing JESUS!!! How He has changed my life???

Are my "good works" lining up with scripture that gloify the work of Jesus or are they dead works that are a mere and partial photo that I do apart from God, that are actually in disobedience to His Word?

"The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.... Moreover, by them Your servant is warned; In keeping them there is great reward. Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins; Let them not rule over me... Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight..." read the entire Psalm 19 here.

I wasn't arguing the point at all lisa. I was just saying that it make you rethink a lot of things.

Yes, it does make one rethink alot of things... and I knew you were not arguing... I was just enjoying thinking more on it "out-loud". Women do that. ha.

In support of what you are saying Lisa, Jesus even spoke of this seemingly Parallel stuation in Matthew 7: 21-23 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

This shows very plainly that one can think they are called and even doing God's works when in actuality, God made it happen DESPITE those that were working in contradiction to his will.

I often wonder how many others are falling into the same trap.

Dan

Dan -- I'd say that there are so many falling into that trap that we would be shocked.

Great Post Lisa

Mike Ratliff

Concerning the passage quoted above, we find this a lot in couples who adopt children internationally. Unless their motivation is truly to serve the Lord through bringing an orphan into their heart and home, they will be unequipped to deal with the challenges that this child presents.

Even with a godly motivation, troubles often come. The difference is that if God quickened the heart from the beginning, then He also prepared the heart.

Parents who go into these adoptions with selfish motivations can "succeed" IF they humble themselves, confess and "put off" their sin of selfishness, "putting on" the help of the Lord instead.

We have a daughter whose first adoptive mother had promised God (she was a works-based Catholic) that she would "rescue" an orphan from Vietnam when she grew up. After bringing these three sisters home, it quickly became apparent that she was not at all able to parent them in her own strength. Unfortunately, she was also not willing to humble herself and become the parent that God would have her be. According to God's wonderful Providence, all three girls found new homes where they have been able to hear of His truth, despite her sinful motives in bringing them to the US.

Blessings
Sheshe

Perfectly relevant, SheShe. Excellent illustration.

Considering we have adopted 2 and we are fully aware of the challenges... and also fully aware that if it were not of the Lord, there is NO WAY we could do it. For only through Him, can the challenges become blessings... that are steps forward in our sanctification process.

Regarding how shocked we will be of those who fall into that trap... my thought is, that we all should be EXTRA diligent to be assured that it is not one of us. Is it me, Lord? May it never be so. May we all persevere to the end because God has preserved us as HIS adopted children.

Thanks for that reminder, Lisa. May the meditations of our hearts and the words of our mouths be pleasing in His sight, our Lord and our Redeemer.

Sheshe

Good distinctions to make--let's read the names carefully--there seems to be a world of differences between these Tonys.

I think the bottom-line is simply this: What did God say?

I agree

What I do struggle with here through is that Jesus himself does not - as far as I can see it anyway - distinguish between what women and men should do in their ministry to God.

(I know that Paul does appear to - but (and I'm not a Greek scholar - only rudimentary level) when you look at his style of writing it is quite difficult to take one phrase (verse) out of context - because he uses a lot of contrasting techniques for example. And there are verses (also written by Paul) which also taken alone seem to contradict what Paul says elsewhere.

We know that the Bible doesn't lie - so these seeming contradictions must then be in our interpretation. And therein lies the danger IMHO.

I pray too that you Kimian are not pushed into (or out of) ministry - but that you truely seek God's heart and purpose for your life. Jonah tried to run away from God's call -but God called him back to do the task.

It is not our job (or your mum's - pastor or not ) to test your calling, it is your own, along with the church into which you believe you are called.

I think it's great that you are questioning what is what. Lisa has one opinion on what the scripture says on the topic of female pastors, and I see it a little differently, but God knows you, and you know Him and you can trust Him to guide you.

And I bless all of you adoptive moms. When it's done for His glory it's a marvellous thing.

In Finland it's almost impossible to adopt a baby because of the use of contraception and ease of abortions (sigh) Most families are small (2 kids)- for economic/cultural reasons mostly so I enjoy the insight into the lives of those of you who have -by Finnish standards - large families, and who also adopt.

be blessed

Hey Lorna,
You know I love ya... and totally, based on God's holy standards in His Word of Truth, disagree with you and sincerely pray that the Lord will work in your heart a transformation in this area of your life for His glory (hug).

Pilgrim, glad to "see" you again. It has been awhile. There is absolutely a world of difference between these 2 men. God-willing the Lord will get hold of Campolo and transform and renew his mind to be in line with scripture.

Hey Lorna. I hope all is going well in Finland. My dad did some missions work in Estonia a few years back and also went to Sweden but didn't make it to Finland. I don't know if you remember when the ship Estonia sank but my dad was moored in another ship right next to the Estonia. He remembers waving to the people on the Estonia as they left. Pretty Crazy stuff.

But I digress...

You said...

"What I do struggle with here through is that Jesus himself does not - as far as I can see it anyway - distinguish between what women and men should do in their ministry to God."

Did Jesus specifically speak, with words, the distinctions between women and men in ministry? No. But He did in actions. I've alluded to this at least once before but i think it's very relevent here. We have to look at the choosing of the Apostles. That would've been the perfect opportunity for him to raise up women and show that their role was and can be the same as men. Martha could've been an Apostle or how about Mary? But He didn't do that. He picked all men.

"And he went up on the mountain and called to him those whom he desired, and they came to him. And he appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach and have authority to cast out demons. He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter); James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James (to whom he gave the name Boanerges, that is, Sons of Thunder); Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him."Mark 3:13-19

Note that mark said "...so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach and have authority to cast out demons." Had Jesus appointed women to this role then and only then would there be grounds to say that women are equal in responsibility to preach and "have authority"

So again Lorna, Did Jesus say the third greatest commandment was Thou shalt not let a woman preacheth"? No. But I believe in his actions of choosing Apostles and even in the way he treated the women around Him, He showed us the biblical model for men's and women's roles.

Mike

Nothing on topic to add, Lisa; just wanted to say that I love your new digs!

Hey Kim... thank you. Now if I was only "with it" regarding such terminology I would know what my "new digs" are. (chuckles)

I still seem to say things like "I am so freaked out" and "That's groovey" ... which, if my kids were not homeschooled and knew better (which I am glad they don't), they might be utterly embarrassed.

interesting thoughts Mike. thank you for sharing them.

But I'm not convinced (not that I think deep down you expect me to be!)

-As I see it, Jesus broke down a lot of the gender barriers at that time - we both know that - and the fact that he didn't choose a woman as one of the 12 isn't the full picture. I do believe if Jesus really believed that women in a preaching minstry were a wrong thing - HE would have said so. He was pretty outspoken after all :)

It didn't happen then - women ( specifically) sent out to preach I mean. why? Because culturally it was unacceptable. But spiritually? I don't think so. If it were Jesus would have said SOMETHING about it IMHO.

Be blessed :)

Hey Lorna,

You are right about Jesus being outspoken. But about the cultural thing I'm not quite sure. Jesus spent most of his time in ministry breaking down cultural barriers. A large portion of the sermon on the mount was devoted to this. Jesus Cared little if any about cultural standards when it came to the proclamation of His Fathers Kingdom and how it should manifest itself on this earth. (Matthew 23)

I just don't see the cultural idea being any hinderance to Jesus. When he allowed the woman with the alabaster box into the home and allowed her to anoint his feet, that was breaking down alot of cultural barriers. If it was God's intention for women to preach or have authority he would've had no problem facing the current culture. But he didn't. He did challenge the culture in the area of women though. He respected them a great deal he showed love and respect to women who were shunned and bannished by their culture.

Jesus broke down many barriers. However, I think we can learn just as much from the barriers that weren't broken down as we can from those that were.

Mike

Lisa, I meant I like your new site. The colors are really nice! Sorry for using slang like that; not very proper for a home school mom :-)

This was a great post. I appreciate the strength with which this particular Tony applies God's word. How refreshing!

Warmly,
Kate

I cannot seem to send out messages on my e-mail, though I can read them... and there is a particular person that reads this blog that e-mailed me something that I cannot respond to. Just to let you know, I took care of your request. Let me know if how I did take care of it is sufficient. LOL.

I agree Kate. Tony articulated this God-honoring application of God's truth with strength and love. And I appreciate that he would take the time to respond... twice. (smile)

Hey Kim, I appreciate your clarification. I thanked you before I knew what it meant because I have read your site and comments on other posts. So i knew it had to be something sweet. And it is always fun to learn something new. Instead of cool or groovey... Did you know there is even slang ASL sign language? (not the ikky stuff) But slang for "pizza" is a fun sign. So is slang for "cool".

Roadkill and Lorna... I am enjoying reading your "conversation". However, Lorna, I do believe you are a sister in Christ that I will gladly spend eternity with in Heaven. I still pray that the Holy Spirit will illuminate your mind through the Word of God to the truth that women should not preach or teach over men. THe up and coming Grudem excerpts that I post on Fridays will address some more of these egalitarian arguments. You are in my heart, my friend.

Lorna, I've never commented on this blog before but thought I'd interject. The role of women in ministery is limited only in the church roles, ie. Pastor teachers, elders or deacons. Paul, I believe made this restriction based on God's original role of women in the garden, marriage, and the home. I found a great help in this matter to be John MacArthur or John Piper. Just do a search on either of their web sites, Piper has a vast amount resources and references. God be with you.