Above is a pic of my youngest daughter and me.
My Husband, My brother in Christ
Why I am not a Beth Moore fan
I went through several of Beth Moore's studies. She comes across as a very sweet woman, very knowledgeable in many areas. She is beautiful and seems to have a real love for the Lord... but there are several very real concerns, including the fact that she teaches over men... But that is not all.
The following is an excerpt from an analysis of what to watch out for regarding Beth Moore. I know there are many Beth Moore fans out there. But please understand that you must consider the whole counsel of God... what the Word of God says in its entirety and not just what does Beth Moore say the Bible says.:
Beth Moore is a very popular woman speaker. Yet, there are some in evangelical churches who are concerned about her improper use of God's Word.She does quite a bit of allegorizing and spiritualizing. She doesn't seem to interpret the scriptures using the literal, grammatical, historical method. Her writings and conferences sometimes reveal a bent toward mysticism and a psychological approach to sin issues.
Here is one quote from her web site concerning the “silent assembly”- “God recently took me into seclusion for a week and placed these instructions before me…I feel I have never been given a more serious assignment for a single night gathering in my ministry.. He [God] instructed me to listen carefully as I have ever listened and He would tell me the Scriptures and the sequence to place on the screens…Our deepest desire here is that God would grace us with His presence.”
Another concern is that Beth Moore does teach men in church settings and ministries. The teaching of men, by a woman, in a ministry of the church, is prohibited in God's Word,
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man..." [1 Timothy 2:12]The following is a description of Beth Moore's Sunday School class that she teaches every Sunday morning at her home church--it was copied from the Houston's First Baptist Church web page:
"Beth Moore has been a Sunday School teacher at Houston's First Baptist Church since 1984. She began teaching an aerobics class/bible study combo to a small group of fortunate women. Now her class, minus aerobic activity, includes men and women, at all walks and stages of their lives."
[Note: this webpage has been removed after a number of complaints had been sent concerning Beth Moore's teaching of men. Currently it says that it "is being revised."]--------------------------------------
Beth Moore's response on 4/11/05 concerning her teaching of men:
"Thank you for your inquiry about my stand on women teaching men. As you may know, the ministry to which God has called me is geared to women. My conference and weekly Bible Studies are entirely focused upon women. The only exception to an entirely female audience is my Sunday School class. Men continue to come and sit in the back. We never sought them but did not know how to deal with them. Would Christ have thrown them out? I just didn’t know. I handed the problem over to my pastor and under his authority, he said to allow anyone to come who chooses. I have wrestled with this and the Lord finally said to me, “I tell you what, Beth, you worry about what I tell you to say, and I’ll worry about who listens.” My ministry is to women. That’s where my heart is. I make no bones about it. But what if men come and sit down? Do we stop and throw them out? I really don’t know. I just placed myself under the authority of my husband, my pastor, and my God. Your servant, Beth Moore"
Tony Capoccia's response: "I cannot agree with Beth or her pastor's reasoning. God's Word is clear: women are not to teach men in a Church setting or ministry. God's Word is not to be ignored by circumstances. God did not say, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent, except if men come on their own, or if your pastor says it's fine." [1 Timothy 2:12
We cannot ignore the clear teaching of Scripture. In this case there are three sinning: The men for coming; the pastor for not stopping them; and Beth for continuing to teach. All Beth would have had to say to the men is, "My dear brothers, I ask that you not come to my class, for that would dishonor my God. If you will not leave then I cannot teach." That would have solved the problem in a biblical and Christ honoring way.
...obedience is more important then our "human wisdom"
-----------------------------------
This excerpt is from Tony Capoccia at the Bible Bulletin Board and Gospel Gems.
Online since 1986
The post on this can be found here.
Let me add my own personal testimony of the one and only time I ever spoke with men in the audience:
I remember the day I was called and asked to speak for Care Net's fund-raising banquet. The first thing I asked was if there were going to be men there. They said yes. I sent the transcript of what I would be speaking to not only my husband, but to 2 pastors to make sure that everything I spoke was within the God-ordained boundaries for me to speak before a mixed audience. They all approved it. The room was full upon walking in. Filled with many men and pastors even. I was a bit shaken honestly. Especially when I found one of the pastors in the audience to be from the church my husband and I attended when we first got married. As always, when I approached the podium to speak, my legs were like wet noodles and my mind pictured me fleeing from the room... but the Lord always gives me the strength to keep walking. It is the longest part... that walk. Hard to explain, but it seems as if it is going in slow motion. But when I begin to speak, something happens. All that fleshly fear disappears in an instant. As I spoke, I could hear men saying things like "Amen, sister." It was honestly a bit unnerving. But I pressed on. Upon finishing, I left the room, went to the bathroom and began to weep. Not only was it the first time I had spoken specifically just on abortion, but I was uncomfortable with having spoken in front of men. I know it was approved by those I trust. This was not an issue of me having authority over men. I was giving a testimonial speech. But since that day, I have prayerfully and preferentially determined that it is best for me to never do that again. I have spoken on the radio. Perhaps men listened. I do not know. But I honestly just never want to get comfortable with even the remote possibility that I am going against my holy Lord and the ordained role for me as a woman.
Men have it much harder than women. The Lord holds them to a higher standard in their role as servant-leaders in the home, and in the church. God's Word does not say "All sinned in Eve." It says "All sinned in Adam" even though Eve bit into the forbidden fruit first.
Comments
I have gotten several sweet e-mails regarding my blog and this post on Beth Moore... some not so sweet
Here is my response to one of the sweet ladies that e-mailed me:
"It is always good to hear from someone who shares my convictions. There is sadly such a lack of conviction for truth out there it can be disheartening. But there really are some of us women that long to see the reverence of God back in the churches.
Beth Moore and so many others may have the appearance outwardly of being good stuff. But upon digging deeper with a vigorous heart to discern and rightly divide the word of truth, we must be careful not to buy into what is popular. Many people I dearly love have bought into Beth Moore and think I am unrighteously judgemental. This does not personally hurt me. It hurts my heart for the truth of God. For that... I cannot back down.
Posted by: 4ever4given | April 7, 2006 08:32 AM
Ah, yer just jealous that she has best-selling bible studies while your biggest claim to fame is that you have met me.
It's a sad comparison when one puts it that way, I know -- until one actualy meets me. Then it is obvious why you're so jealous of Beth.
:-)
IT'S A JOKE! LIGHTEN UP!
Posted by: centuri0n | April 7, 2006 01:43 PM
I can take a joke... just remember, if you are gonna dish it out, you better be able to take it.
Posted by: 4ever4given | April 7, 2006 01:57 PM
Beth Moore. What can I say? My wife and daughter love her. However, when I have taught from her studies I have had actually refuse to teach some of that stuff. However, I'll be fair, the material was not directly from her. It was a study of one of her books. The writer of the study was not Beth Moore. However, I refuse to teach something that is opposed to doctrinal truths. I showed what I was disagreeing with to my wife. She said that must have come from the writer not Beth. In any case, I say we must approach anyone's teachings with wisdom and discernment.
As far as Turk goes, he is a funny man.
In Christ
Mike Ratliff
Posted by: Mike Ratliff | April 7, 2006 02:15 PM
Hey Mike R., I can think of a whole host of books that you could be teaching from that cause far less dancing around to find truth. Beth Moore I am sure is nice. She has some good points. Remember, I have been through 3 studies. It is not like I am taking jabs in ignorance. I have seen it. And I have found that the "dancing" was not worth it.
Posted by: 4ever4given | April 7, 2006 02:26 PM
I couldn't agree more. If I have to dance around to find the truth it's like swimming through a sewer just so I can get a cookie that's floating on top. No thank you!
In a couple of weeks I'm supposed to start teaching from a Charles Stanley book. I am not looking forward to that I assure you.
Posted by: Mike Ratliff | April 7, 2006 02:33 PM
Mike R., why would you agree to do that? Is it to point out the errors? (You really should not "dance" in church.) ha.
:-O
Posted by: 4ever4given | April 7, 2006 02:54 PM
Ah, you are so fortunate to be in wonderful reformed church with a great pastor, etc. However, I became reformed about a year ago and the majority of my church, including my pastor, are not. I can't believe they still let me teach and serve, but I never challenge the authority of my pastor. As a Deacon that is part of the oath we take. I take that serious. I have a new church picked out, but I don't think my better half would be too thrilled with changing.
Along these lines, I have been teaching the truth in my class . That does cause some issues now and then, but some of them are certainly coming around.
I have been praying for something to happen where I could make a clean break, but so far I know I am to continue to teach the truth there. Know what I mean?
Posted by: Mike Ratliff | April 7, 2006 03:00 PM
I do understand, Mike R. Before my husband and I moved where we are now, we were stuck in a church that claimed secretly to be 4 pointers. Not "sold" on the "L"... which to me is still an Arminian bent. THey did not claim much too loudly because they did not want to scare the people (and I think their money) away. The teachers that taught there seemed all over the place. It was an experience we walked away from actually even more strengthened in what we believe and why. It can be easy to get lax in a Doctrines of Grace church, like we are honored to be in now. That is not a good thing... to get lax anywhere. No matter how sound the church we must still be as Bereans. But when you are stuck in a church that is not, you really have to be on your toes and prepared to defend the uncompromising truth out of love. We had thought we were going to get to go back to the church in Tulsa that Dennis Gunderson from Grace and Truth Books pastors after finishing the medical education. When it did not happen, we tearfully pleaded that God would provide us a sound church in the area we moved to. He did right away. But it could have been His plan for us to not find a church here that was sound. Sound churches are hard to find. What if God had ordained for us not to find this Doctrines of Grace church? Is it not a command to fellowship with other believers? We are in a sound church crisis right now. Where are they? How far do we compromise when wanting to obey the Lord to fellowship with other believers? I know there was an ongoing debate on this at the TeamPyro site awhile back. These are hard questions to answer.
Posted by: 4ever4given | April 7, 2006 03:25 PM
Mike R, I encourage you to take the spiritual lead in your family if you feel that God is truly leading you to a different church. The Lord had led us away from churches for theological reasons twice, with my husband leading (dragging me, actually) both times. I tend to be very emotional, while God has gifted him with much more discernment. In the end, our family life was much richer, though, partially because he led and I followed. I supported him, through the tears, and we grew spiritually from those situations. I encourage you, on your wife's behalf, to not be hesitant to follow the Lord if He leads you elsewhere.
Blessings
Sheshe
(Lisa, if this could be construed as me teaching a man, then PLEASE do not post it. It just sounds like he needs a bit of encouragement in this area and I have been in his wife's shoes, not wanting to leave our church home. Also, please delete this part if you do post it. Thanks!)
Posted by: sheshe | April 7, 2006 03:53 PM
Very interesting discussion, all of you. I have had a different experience with "church." I have attended the church I attend now for 23 years.(It will be 24 a week from tuesday) But Instead of going to other churches, the other churches have come to me. I attend the same church as Lisa and we are very blessed with a great pastor. But he is the 4th since the church got started in the late 70's. I have sat under all four, though the first one I don't rmember too much. I have heard them all preach and it is interesting how different they all were. The first was verry intelectual but didn't connect with the people too much. The second was very sincere but way wrong doctrinaly. The third was a buisness man in a pastor suit. The current pastor is a cool drink of water in the desert of the modern church. But without my pastor being used by God to realy open the scriptures for me I wouldn't know how good I have it. Through him, God has brought me to the path of the doctrines of grace as well as the attitude of the bereans. I say all this to say that My church makes all the difference in my life.
I agree with Lisa that if you do not have a church that is exactly what you want in your area then you should find the best and serve with all your might while not disobeying your convictions.
But Mike R., if you have found a church that teaches the true scriptures then run headlong into it. All the other details will sort themselves out.
I have seen what it looks like for a family to settle into a church. My parents left the church lisa and I attend several years ago to go the what amounts to a mega church. My dad hates it but doesn't want to upset my mom.(she wers the pants in the family and that is a whole other topic for discussion)SO instead of taking his family where they need to go he has the attitude that if they're happy it must be right.
This tears me apart inside. I try to tell them of the doctrines of grace and try to share with them a discerning word about modern christianity and they say that I am just always "negative" and "pessimistic".
I shed tears, ven as I type this, for my family.
Anywhoo... Long Story Short
1.) Women shouldn't teach adult men
2.) A good church is hard to find
3.) Keep it if you've got it
4.) Find it if you don't
5.) Above all rejoice in the sovereignty of Jehovah
6.) Forgive my long post
Mike
aka Roadkill
Posted by: Roadkill (Mike) | April 7, 2006 04:56 PM
Thanks Lisa, Mike aka Roadkill and sheshe. Sometimes the role God has for us in our churches aren't what we want at all.I think that is what is going on for now. In any case, as soon as I can swithch I'm goin'.
Posted by: Mike Ratliff | April 7, 2006 05:42 PM
I sit here reading this with my mouth wide open...proclaiming Christ while bashing a sister in Christ at the same time. Aren't we taught that if we have an issue with a fellow brother to take it up with that brother, in private? Have you done so, with an emphasis on IN PRIVATE? Remember we will all be judged when we go home.
In Christ,
Lisa
Posted by: Lisa Foster | September 15, 2006 03:31 PM
Dear Lisa Foster,
I appreciate your comment. Whenever I hit post, I always do so with trembling fingers knowing that only God's Word is sufficient and my words are often inadequate.
The purpose of this post was not to bash a sister in Christ. I am sorry you get that impression. Beth Moore has been confronted privately numerous times on these issues. (I have included one of those confrontations by Tony Capoccia in this post that pointed out the very things I struggled with.)
Steve Camp from CampOnThis wrote regarding this blog discussion particularly with Lorna: (this is printed here with his permission)
She (Lorna) said: "At the end of the day both you and I will be asked by God about the use of our time and talents. Lorna / Lisa did you use them for MY kingdom and for MY glory? If we did we will be rewarded."
She forgot one key element here: did you use them for MY kingdom and for MY glory--according to MY Word?
Obedience to God's Word is never trumped by the pragmatic of using gifts and talents outside of His Word's authority...
I checked out your article on Beth Moore the other day--very good. I like Beth, but she is wrong for teaching men especially in her local church. She not only teaches men in a Sunday School class, but she has even preached from the pulpit on a Sunday evening service. I know this for I have family that attend 1st Baptist in Houston.
The verses sited in your post from this Finish woman preacher she has taken out of context. Paul is describing the relationship between all kinds of people in the body of Christ in respect to our salvation. He is not describing ecclesiastical authority, or in her case, the absence of it. Though we are all one in Christ, the Lord has designed pastoral leadership to be done by men; not because of gifting or talents or abilities, but because of two things: 1. The order in creation; 2. Eve was deceived (Cp. 1 Timothy 2). To go outside that authority is to violate Scripture.
One other key element here: if there are to be women teachers in a local church setting exercising apostolic authority in the Word of God, why aren't there the same biblical qualifiers in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and Titus 1:4-9 as a man is supposed to have? The reason? it is not permissible.
Beth Moore is a gifted teacher and has some good things to say. But she should not abdicate the authority of Scripture because her own local pastor is weak and not acting biblically; or because of her name in the market place to draw people to the church (pragmatics usually win the day in most SBC churches).
... keep on.
Steve Camp
Col. 1:9-14
Posted by: 4ever4given | September 15, 2006 05:15 PM