Doctrines of Grace NOT invented by Calvin

Well said Lisa. If the Gospel were dependant upon us and our spiritual abilities then it would fail everytime. Thank God, He setup the Gospel to function all within His Sovereign Grace!

Mike Ratliff

I wrote this limerick in March and it seems appropriate now.

The 5 points are not from Calvin
Nor could they have been
Such great theology
Comes from deity
And the truth that lies therein

I'm also reminded of a song by Derek Webb called "The Truth"
He describes the song this way...

"This song is about the truth being true, not because I believe it, but because God makes it true. And there not being any contingency on anything that I do as far as controlling God's sovereignty. And the comfort that I can take in being as flawed as I am considering that none of that is contingent on God doing anything in anyone's life. Ya know I think that I often worry too much that if I don't believe something hard enough for somebody that they're not going to be able to believe in it either. And the bottom line is, it's just up to us to be obedient with God's truth, and He makes it true, not us."

Here are the lyrics...

I've been putting on and putting off too many people
And I'm getting old to live like an injured man
Ailment and unfilled prescription like the nose on my face
Like a broken boat safety raft and a love for the water
And I just can't decide to sink or swim it's me or them
Should I save myself or go back for the others because

Maybe there's no gray and I was wrong to tell 'em so
And maybe all that I've to do was done a long time ago

'Cause there was life before my life
There was provision before my need
There was redemption before my sin
For the sake of the world I thank the Lord
That the truth's not contingent on me

I've been dressing up and dressing down for too many people
And I'm a little young to live like a troubled boy, a troubled soul
A fish out of water, 'cause we're all just the same
We're all just as good and just as bad and just as distracted
By the corners of our eyes as our fathers were and theirs before
And all those before them and still I glance around

And with the way I stare you'd think I'd seen through a two-by-four
And with the way I walk you'd think I'd never seen grace before

But I've been putting up and putting down too many things
That I know nothing about but I'm jealous of
Holding pride as tight as I can like she was my only daughter

Yes Mike R., imagine our salvation being up to us in our state of total depravity... {{{shudder}}}

Roadkill... I like your limerick and thanks for sharing the Derek Webb lyrics... favorite part, "For the sake of the world I thank the Lord. That the truth's not contingent on me."

Hi Lisa. I found you via Strange Baptistfire. I'm finding that I haven't run across as many women who are 'sovereignty' gals. It's nice to see it. :)

This was a great post. I'm sure I'll be back to read more of your blog. :)

Yes Gayla, it is difficult to find "sovereignty gals", Doctrines of Grace women... I have found more women than men are too satisfied in their ignorance of who the God is that they serve and why they believe what they believe. Women can study doctrine and theology without violating Biblical womanhood. What a wonderful thing to pass on to our children, to encourage others with... what a joy to get to know the God I love and serve and can't get enough of. I love your prayer on yuor site... "Lord, continue to cut through any false teachings that still reside within my belief system. Circumcise my heart, cutting away the evil, deceitful parts and replacing it with Your Truth. Do this in order that Your Name and Your Renown are glorified. AMEN"

Hey. Two things:

1. Though I'm a seven point calvinist (I stole that from John Piper), I find that the biggest stumbling block for people is the whole "limited atonement" aspect. As I know it, that's the root of the upcoming 'James White vs. Ergun Caner' debate. What are your thoughts on that?

2. After recently debating against some real hard "Calvinism IS the gospel" folk who figured that a 4-pointer couldn't even be a Christian, I coined the term "Calvangelism". I use it now when someone confuses the gospel with the Tulip. NOT saying that you are, but I just figured that would give you a chuckle.

In all seriousness, I've kinda started to shy away from using the term "Calvinism", simply because it's started to carry bad connotations...kinda like the what happened with the term "fundamentalism". I'm a Christian who holds to biblical theology. I hold to the five points (plus 2 more) as much as anyone, but I've found that if I don't use the term, people are more receptive to listening to what I have to say. There are so many caricatures and misconceptions of "Calvinism" that the usage of the term often shuts off listening ears before I even get a chance to say anything. Anyone else find that as well?

Totally understand on the 7 points. Makes sense.
I do not agree with the "Calvinists" that go to the ungodly extreme of claiming a 4 pointer cannot be a Christian. Though we are called to do self-examination of our own salvation, and Biblically confront those in obvious sin, we must be careful not to go around acting like we are God, knowing who is saved and who isn't.
When I share the Gospel or talk about my beliefs with a non-Christian, I do not start with "I'm a Calvinist." If a believer asks me what I believe, I tell them. Do I label it Calvinism? No. It is Biblical Doctrine thus labeled Calvinism because he is known for "systemizing" it. However, i am not ashamed to be called a Calvinist, though too many have marked it as extreme and mishandled it as hyper. I love to talk to people about what it really is. There are many terms that have been warped and mis-defined. Such as sola scriptura, evangelical Christian, fundamentalist. However, giving such terms up is not the answer. Communicating and living out the truth of what they really are is.

By the way... I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this issue.

Yeah. The book of life doesn't come with a 'quick reference guide'...ha! I think I sorta didn't articulate myself as good as I could have, because it seems like we're pretty much on the same page.

I also don't use the term "calvinism" when I'm sharing the gospel with someone...kinda like I don't use other terms like "soteriological" or "supralapsarian" (though I do have a little habit of teaching people a few new words when I'm explaining the gospel...). If someone ASKS me if I'm a Calvanist, I only answer that question if I have time to gather what they THINK they're talking about when they use the term "calvinism", and possibly help them understand what I mean when I apply the term to myself. But I don't hide it either. I'm not ashamed of holding to a theological system with a name. I'm WAY, WAY more tempted to hide the fact that I'm an "apparently crazy" young earth creationist, but from what I've seen on that Strange Baptist Fire blog, there's more debate about Calvinism in the SBC than there is up here.

Oh, and for the record, thank the Lord tonight that you're in a conference that is struggling with Calvinism and Arminianism. I'm a Canadian Mennonite, from the Canadian Mennonite Brethren Conference.

Let's just say that I WISH us Mennonites were arguing about something like that. Around 7 months ago, I drove half way across Canada and stopped at 2 Mennonite Churches on the way, while talking with several ex-Bible school friends and whatnot. Here's a post to give you a sense of what happened on my amazing journey and how bad my denomination is doing right now:

Guess Who's Back

Yes, it does look like we are on the same page... except I had to delete the word cr-- . Call me a traditionalist, but that is a word that makes me cringe.

I read your link and responded:

You wrote: "The lengths some people go to in order to supress the truth is astounding."

It's disheartening. Makes me want to weep sometimes honestly.

Hilariously satirical writing style with excellent points. Excellent... but sadly true.

Did I drop a "c-bomb" in my post...uh, I'm guessing I did on the linked posts or somewhere. doh. Sorry if I did! I guess that I've still got quite a project in the realm of the application of Ephesians 4:29.

I deleted it. Yes, you dropped it and I appreciate your understanding as to why I would consider that unedifying and unwholesome.
Sincerely from the heart (ex animo),
Lisa