Monday Madness: To Laugh or Not to Laugh

Hi,

This is the first time that I've commented here (hi and I find your blog very thoughtprovoking!).

I read the link that you provided - "Does anyone choose hell?".

Currently I'm searching and I must say that I really struggle with the whole election/predetermination issue.

I can logically understand your quote about God choosing to have mercy on whom he wants to and that we are all deserving of hell. But it's easy to accept that when you know you are saved.

When you are not, it seems like you are really stuck - if you are not shown mercy and one of God's elect, then there is nothing you can do.

I'm not sure that I am making sense. As I said, I really struggle with this one - if I am not one of the elect, then I can search but I will never find what I need.

Yours, Wilm

Lisa & Wilm,

It is a sobering thought and not always understandable.

But if you really can grasp how incapable we are of doing true good and righteousness, you'd see that it's even the hope of the unsaved.

I was asked about this subject recently by a dear friend and made a post on getting to heaven from here on my site. In fact, I wrote it for one with another friend in mind.

It was a harsh week when I wrote this. But as bad as things seemed to be, the gospel has made huge inroads into both lives.

Anyway, Wilm I wish you the best in dealing with these subjects. They can be difficult to accept at times.

Hi Wilm... Welcome
1. You wrote:I can logically understand your quote about God choosing to have mercy on whom he wants to and that we are all deserving of hell.

My response: The quote I provided at Challies site on that post I linked to is actually a concise Biblical summary of what is called the Reformed view of double predestination. He also writes, If God in any sense predestines or foreordains reprobation, doesn't this make the rejection of Christ by the reprobate absolutely certain and inevitable? And if the reprobate's reprobation is certain in light of predestination, doesn't this make God responsible for the sin of the reprobate? We must answer the first question in the affirmative, and the second in the negative. If God foreordains anything, it is absolutely certain that what He foreordains will come to pass. The purpose of God can never be frustrated... If God foreordains reprobation does this not mean that God forces, compels, or coerces the reprobate to sin? Again the answer must be negative. If God, when He is decreeing reprobation, does so in consideration of the reprobate's being already fallen, then He does not coerce him to sin. To be reprobate is to be left in sin, not pushed or forced to sin.

2. You wrote: But it's easy to accept that when you know you are saved.

My response: I write this in tears... no it isn't. It boils down to why would God show mercy to anyone. I know I deserve hell, and that is why I find myself asking the Lord... why me? For I cannot comprehend His mercy towards me. But then that is what makes me love His Gospel and proclaim it, God-willing, without hesitation. I do not boast of my Lord as though it will add anything to my salvation, I boast of the Lord and His work because I cannot keep silent. Amazing love, how can it be, that Thou, MY God, should'st die for me!"

3. You wrote: I really struggle with this one - if I am not one of the elect, then I can search but I will never find what I need.

My response: If a person calls on the name of the Lord with a broken and contrite heart ( Psalm 51 ), in genuine repentance of sin, than the Lord WILL hear and they WILL find what they are searching for. But yet, calling on the name of the Lord is not within anyone's own power. If it were they would boast of themselves and not the work of Christ. ...coming to Christ is not walking an aisle, but is casting oneself on Christ for life or death as they perhaps cry out to the Lord, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am a sinner. Save me, though I am guilty and deserving of your just wrath..." There is no formulated prayer, for such a cry is the work of the Holy Spirit. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.--2 Cor 7:10

Many grieve over their sin and no one will come to Christ without sin. But if one comes with an attitude of holding on to their sin, than such a person is not truly repentant of it and their grief still leads to death because they are still in slavery to sin.
man is so set against God and his Christ that he never will accept eternal salvation until the Holy Spirit, by a supernatural work, overcomes (renews) his will and turns the current of his affections; and why is this? ...because his own iniquities have taken him, and he is holden with the cords of his sin. For this reason he will not come unto Christ that he may have life; for this reason he cannot come, except the Father which hath sent Christ draw him.---Spurgeon
But if you come with your sin AND a longing to be delivered from it, that is a necessary brokenness that leads to life eternal where the bondage of sin is broken, there will no longer be slavery to sin...
[ The Gospel ]is God's way of cutting the bonds which confine men's souls.

I also want to encourage you to go to monergism.com
There is a wealth of sound doctrine there.

Thank you for your comment. It is good to reflect on these things and why I believe them.

His servant for His glory,
Lisa

Hey Mike Y.
I always appreciate your comments. Yes, this is a hard one. Consider providing a link to what you wrote.

Here is the quote I posted at Challies, "The decree and fulfillment of election provide mercy for the elect while the efficacy of reprobation provides justice for the reprobate. God shows mercy sovereignly and unconditionally to some, and gives justice to those passed over in election. That is to say, God grants the mercy of election to some and justice to others. No one is the victim of injustice. To fail to receive mercy is not to be treated unjustly. God is under no obligation to grant mercy to all, in fact He is under no obligation to grant mercy to any. He says, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy" (Rom. 9). The divine prerogative to grant mercy voluntarily cannot be faulted. If God is required by some cosmic law apart from Himself to be merciful to all men, then we would have to conclude that justice demands mercy. If that is so, then mercy is no longer voluntary, but required. If mercy is required, it is no longer mercy, but justice. What God does not do is sin by visiting injustice upon the reprobate. Only by considering election and reprobation as being asymmetrical in terms of a positive-negative schema can God be exonerated from injustice."---RC Sproul

Note to Wilm...

Two vital things to remember considering theology:

1: Don't spend too much time at the bottom of the swimming pool... you'll eventually drown!

Thinking on theology is much like swimming in the deep end of a big swimming pool. You can dive down deep into the water but as you get toward the bottom your ears pop, your eyes burn, and your chest begins to ache. You can't stay down there for a long time and really live. There is a time when you have to return to the surface -- that place of foundational things -- where you can live and breath and serve the Lord.

2: We are to worship God... not merely study Him.

God is NOT an object to be studied. He is the One we worship! While His word says that sound doctrine is essential to being a healthy Christian, our teaching must always compliment our service. If our teaching hinders our worship of Him, we are out of balance!

I hope these two points of encourgement help you put everything into perspective. :)

That is just about the best advice I have read in a long time. Thank you Mr. Fuller. I can tend to get caught up in theology and fail to put what I have learned into practice. It is only by the grace of God alone... such as the Lord sending you to make this comment, to remind me that God is to be even more so worshipped than merely studied... even so in our pursuit of knowledge and wisdom, it must be done with the motive of worship.
I love that our Lord provides wisdom "generously and without reproach"... but it is truly what we do with what we know that matters. Does it puff me up or does it make me fall on my face? And as you said, our teaching must always compliment our service.

Thank you sincerely,
Lisa

One more thing...
A right view of God is important in worshipping Him rightly... which is why, as you say, sound doctrine is essential to being a healthy Christian. Sound Doctrine is something that should not be forsaken, but there is a vital balance, as you also pointed out.

Me again.

Thanks for the replies.

Jeff - I liked the swimming pool analogy. It gave me a smile although I do think I'm stuck at the bottom of the pool.....

I have had someone recently tell me the "believe and receive it" concept. But I don't think it's that easy - I know that on my own there is no way I could sincerely repent and believe. I can't explain but I know it.

At the risk of sounding completely stupid to you all (you are all such sincere believers and obviously knowledgeable) - I know that there is a God and more and more I do think that the Bible is true. But that's as far as I am.

People talk about loving God and worshipping God. But for me, I guess I'm more afraid of God. I know OF Him, but I know that I don't KNOW Him.

I grew up going to church and I had very sincere believing parents. If they were still alive they would be praying constantly that I repent and truly believe. (They have passed away now - I hope that their prayers are still fruitful). I can't believe that I went to church until I was 26 years old and I just tuned out. Now that I am 36, married and with 2 young children, I wonder if I turned my back on God's Word for too long.

Sorry - I really am waffling now.

Mike - could you post a link to the blog entry that you mentioned.

Thanks, Wilm

Wilm --

You said, "I know that on my own there is no way I could sincerely repent and believe."

I hope I can again clear up two possible conclusions I draw from your statement:

1. If you are seeking the Lord, you are being drawn by the Spirit of God... thus you are not on your own. Therefore since you are being drawn, since you are taking any interest in the Lord at all, then God is calling you to repentance.

A friend of mine, Chris Wright, often reminds me that repentance isn't restricted to a physical action. This is why "sinner's prayers" are not repentance. Repentance is the command to put an end to ourselves, putting away our dead works and throwing ourselves fully on Him and His gift. While prayer may be involved, repentance is cheapened if it is made soley into a prayer.

2. Is it possible you a lover of your sin? Perhaps you cannot find (know) the Lord just as a bank robber cannot find the police?

Late in your post you say, "I wonder if I turned my back on God's Word for too long." While earlier you say, "I guess I'm more afraid of God." The Bible tells us that the wrath of God abides on those whose backs are turned to Him.

Criminals glady break the Law to what they think is their benefit. But just as criminals are afraid of what will happen to them when they are caught, sinners too try to evade Him. What sinners cannot see is that the grace of God provides the Lamb who was slain -- Jesus paid our debt as lawbreakers.

While it is difficult to share everything in a little post like this, maybe this sermon by brother Paul Washer will help fill in things I didn't touch or I missed:

http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/index.php?option=com_weblinks&task=view&catid=39&id=29

Welcome back Wilm,
Mike and his wife Chelle are on their way out of town, so he requested that I post you the link. Getting to Heaven From Here

I think I risk sounding completely stupid everyday... but that is how I learn. However, nothing you have written sounds stupid at all.

Are you involved in a local church? I do not know where you are from, but if you would like to e-mail me at lisa4given@hotmail.com , my husband and I can, God-willing, try to help you locate a sound church in your area.

No, the answers to all of your questions cannot be from just a church. The answers are sufficiently in the Word of God. You are certainly and fervently in our prayers, Wilm.

You wrote: People talk about loving God and worshipping God. But for me, I guess I'm more afraid of God.
Actually, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
What I have not seen in your words is an answer to the questions, "Do you know you are a sinner?" and
"Do you know that God's wrath is justifiably upon the unrepentant and the will of man apart from God is completely wicked?"

There is hope only through Christ. With the knowing of these truths, there must also be repentance and belief. Truly, where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.

Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. It is a very surprising thing—a thing to be marveled at most of all by those who enjoy it. I know that it is to me even to this day the greatest wonder that I ever heard of, that God should ever justify me. I feel myself to be a lump of unworthiness, a mass of corruption, and a heap of sin, apart from His almighty love. I know by a full assurance that I am justified by faith which is in Christ Jesus, and treated as if I had been perfectly just, and made an heir of God and a joint heir with Christ; and yet by nature I must take my place among the most sinful. I, who am altogether undeserving, am treated as if I had been deserving. I am loved with as much love as if I had always been godly, whereas aforetime I was ungodly. Who can help being astonished at this? Gratitude for such favor stands dressed in robes of wonder.
Now, while this is very surprising, I want you to notice how available it makes the gospel to you and to me. If God justifieth the ungodly, then, dear friend, He can justify you. Is not that (an ungodly sinner) the very kind of person that you are?---Spurgeon

I have left you with many links to read through if you so choose. It is hard to communicate sometimes in the blogosphere... it is hard to know who is real, who is genuine. But please know that you are in our prayers. I do pray that you repent and believe, as your parents prayed. For truly, you do not know your hour of death. It could be today or tomorrow or in 50 years, but in light of eternity, where do you want to end up?

For your body will be prepared for eternity some day...
As I have written elsewhere in regards to a recent sermon from my pastor on glorification, (John 5:28-29; Dan 12:2; Matt 25:46; Acts 24:15) As believers are prepared for glorification, that once for all the saints, simultaneous, twinkling of an eye, final step when Christ returns, when the body is perfectly prepared for resurrection along with the Spirit and completely set free from the effects of the Fall (I Cor 15:35-38)... so also unbelievers bodies will be raised and transformed for eternal, righteous judgement , called the second death (Rev 2:11) "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:43-48)

Please know I write these words with a sincere heart and plea.

His servant for His glory,
Lisa

Wilm,

I think doctrine is important, but it can never take the place of faith. We are saved by Grace through faith. Do you believe that you are a sinner who deserves hell? If you do then praise the Lord because grace has touched your heart. The natural man does not believe that this is true, but by grace we do. If you believe that you are a sinner who deserves hell then have you called upon the name of the Lord for mercy and salvation? If not, then please do because God's word says the all who do this will be saved. As far as election goes. Don't worry about that for now. Just respond to the call from God. I am praying for you.

In Christ

Mike Ratliff

My pastor did not know how to post this link, so he asked me to do this for you, Wilm.
It is J.I. Packers, What must I do to be saved?

By the way, you have people all over the world praying for you.

To God be all the glory,
Lisa

Wilm and I are in private e-mail conversation now. Wilm is a married woman with 2 children. Please keep her in your prayers.

Honestly, I'm not so much onto the swimming pool analogy...I've often thought of theological studies more like pearl diving:

It's hard work that takes significant training and skill, but the possible rewards are amazing. What's more, if you stay at the bottom of the ocean with your treasures you'll certainly drown. You've got to swim to the surface and share the pearls with others in order to truly reap their rewards.

As analogies go, that's not that much of one either, but it's all right.

As for the 'wandering away from God' stuff, almost everything's already been said. These folks are right on the money here, and brudder Mike is good to point out that your own self acknowledgement of the negative state of things is itself evidence of the work of God's Spirit in your heart!

It sounds strange, but rejoice that you don't feel so hot about where you're at! That's MUCH better than being oblivious to things and thinking that everything is all good in the hood (especially when that may NOT be the case).

2 Corinthians 7:10 says, "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death."

If you look in the mirror of God's word and see that your face is dirty, of if the Holy Spirit binds your conscience over the (possible) fact that you're far from the Lord, don't let that fact sit...

...you don't get points for 'knowing'.

Wilm, this is a great place to ask honest and biting questions. We get at each other sometimes on little things, but Mike, Gayla, Sheshe, Lisa (and whoever else) and I are essentially all on the same page. None of us were born Christians, and all of us had times where we neither knew nor cared much about the things of God.

Any one of us would love to share some of that story with you and possibly engage some serious inqusition. We'll pray for you too, and I'm so thankful that God has brought you here. He's so good, in such beautiful and brilliant ways.

I cannot expose TAD and I's private e-mail conversation. However, I will say that the e-mails between us revealed a startling and even further distortion of God's holy and sufficient Word.

Praying for you... hope all is well in California. Are you missing Canada yet?

thanks! I'm feeling it...I think I'm fueled by other people's prayers these days!

I enjoy Cali but I DEFINITELY miss Canada. I'll survive though; just gotta make some good friends. Please pray for that; the people make ALL the difference.

Well, we know the Lord always provides perfectly... but not always in the way we expect. It is a joy to pray for you!